Sword guard for comments

fernando · 30th January 2019, 03:50 PM

All points noted; lots of reasoning ... thanks a lot.
I take it that, the smith who made this guard (or whoever commissioned it), was familiar with arms making and not passive of having to wonder what would be in the Tizona's opposite guard side, when looking at a flat drawing or a picture; meaning to say that this design was intentional and served a purpose ... be it for practical reasons or a challenging essay.
I myself, as you, keep thinking of its sturdiness; a guard with this weight would call for a blade and pommel to match with, perhaps also an unnecessary overweight for the relative solidity of a Saint's image; my uneducated guess.

corrado26 · 30th January 2019, 04:55 PM

I found the following items in Heribert Seitz, Blankwaffen, Volume I and in the catalogue of the Wallace Collection, European Arms and Armour, nr. 539
corrado26

fernando · 30th January 2019, 05:32 PM

Udo, the main problem remains in that all of this type you see out there have side rings in their guards and not a full ellipse where both tang and ricasso have to pass through solid holes.
Amazing; i was precisely paging the Wallace collection and also recall having once taken some lousy clandestine pictures in the Sant'Angelo castle museum.
If only Victrix has kept the perfect drawing he has previously uploaded in the original thread !

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Victrix · 30th January 2019, 06:28 PM

Boa noite,

The drawing is still with us. Luckily I scribbled something unrelated important on the other side so I kept it with me when I came home from my ski trip. I think the width of the tang should be narrower than the ricasso. The guard hole for the tang is smaller than for the ricasso.

According to the Cantar de Mio Cid the Tizona was won from a previous owner King Yucef [Yussef] of Valencia. So there is a possibility that this guard type is Moorish rather than Spanish or Portuguese.

fernando · 30th January 2019, 07:20 PM

Godnatt victrix

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Thanks for bringing back that good drawing. Yes, it is reasonable to consider that the tang is narrower than the ricasso. In my sketch i only cared to emphasize the blade passing through the holes.
Well, the myth of El Cid and the Tizona saga are "beads of another rosary". Experts debate the veracity of both subjects as they appear nowadays; a XI century sword with a XVI century hilt AND ALL THAT
I recall watching the movie with Charlton Heston in my youth; El Cid already dead, being tied to his horse to ride in front of the Kings army, to make the Moors believe he came back from his tomb !

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midelburgo · 30th January 2019, 10:51 PM

From the examples above (the 1610 Solingen one excepted), I understand that there was no diminution of the blade broadness before reaching the cross.

I am wondering if that arrangement was not usual because it will not allow the normal vibration of the blade when hitting. You have many kinds of cup hilts, but in most the shell is sustained from the cross. In a few, the blade is trapped at both points.

Actually, in the movie the used a replica with the XVIth century hilt... And Charlton from XIth century does not take the advantage of crossing the finger...also because the grip is longer than in the original.

fernando · 31st January 2019, 12:21 PM

That would switch us back to the 'genuine' Tizona riddle.
In a way, Charlton's setup would be the correct one, if we think of the period the actual episode took place; no blunt ricasso, thus no way to place your fingers but all of them in the actual grip, providing enough (grip) length is applied. Whereas the Tizona (short grip) example as today is brought to us, suggests a ricasso finger grip which only appeared a few centuries later.
Take a look at this XVII century exponential example, in that only three fingers would fit onto the grip, two fingers left to hold the ricasso.
Note that the quillons are welded to the cup bowl rim, and not fixed with interior extensions, the first being a (more) Portuguese way.
... And don't forget to read my suggestions with a pinch of salt; i am only playing by ear

.

(picture courtesy of "As Armas e os Barões" de Eduardo Nobre).

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30th January 2019, 04:55 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	I found the following items in Heribert Seitz, Blankwaffen, Volume I and in the catalogue of the Wallace Collection, European Arms and Armour, nr. 539 corrado26 Attached Images

30th January 2019, 05:32 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Udo, the main problem remains in that all of this type you see out there have side rings in their guards and not a full ellipse where both tang and ricasso have to pass through solid holes. Amazing; i was precisely paging the Wallace collection and also recall having once taken some lousy clandestine pictures in the Sant'Angelo castle museum. If only Victrix has kept the perfect drawing he has previously uploaded in the original thread ! . Attached Images

30th January 2019, 06:28 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Boa noite, The drawing is still with us. Luckily I scribbled something unrelated important on the other side so I kept it with me when I came home from my ski trip. I think the width of the tang should be narrower than the ricasso. The guard hole for the tang is smaller than for the ricasso. According to the Cantar de Mio Cid the Tizona was won from a previous owner King Yucef [Yussef] of Valencia. So there is a possibility that this guard type is Moorish rather than Spanish or Portuguese. Attached Images

30th January 2019, 07:20 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Godnatt victrix . Thanks for bringing back that good drawing. Yes, it is reasonable to consider that the tang is narrower than the ricasso. In my sketch i only cared to emphasize the blade passing through the holes. Well, the myth of El Cid and the Tizona saga are "beads of another rosary". Experts debate the veracity of both subjects as they appear nowadays; a XI century sword with a XVI century hilt AND ALL THAT I recall watching the movie with Charlton Heston in my youth; El Cid already dead, being tied to his horse to ride in front of the Kings army, to make the Moors believe he came back from his tomb ! . Last edited by fernando; 30th January 2019 at 08:04 PM.

30th January 2019, 10:51 PM	#6
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	From the examples above (the 1610 Solingen one excepted), I understand that there was no diminution of the blade broadness before reaching the cross. I am wondering if that arrangement was not usual because it will not allow the normal vibration of the blade when hitting. You have many kinds of cup hilts, but in most the shell is sustained from the cross. In a few, the blade is trapped at both points. Actually, in the movie the used a replica with the XVIth century hilt... And Charlton from XIth century does not take the advantage of crossing the finger...also because the grip is longer than in the original. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 30th January 2019 at 11:31 PM.

30th January 2019, 03:50 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	All points noted; lots of reasoning ... thanks a lot. I take it that, the smith who made this guard (or whoever commissioned it), was familiar with arms making and not passive of having to wonder what would be in the Tizona's opposite guard side, when looking at a flat drawing or a picture; meaning to say that this design was intentional and served a purpose ... be it for practical reasons or a challenging essay. I myself, as you, keep thinking of its sturdiness; a guard with this weight would call for a blade and pommel to match with, perhaps also an unnecessary overweight for the relative solidity of a Saint's image; my uneducated guess.

31st January 2019, 12:21 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That would switch us back to the 'genuine' Tizona riddle. In a way, Charlton's setup would be the correct one, if we think of the period the actual episode took place; no blunt ricasso, thus no way to place your fingers but all of them in the actual grip, providing enough (grip) length is applied. Whereas the Tizona (short grip) example as today is brought to us, suggests a ricasso finger grip which only appeared a few centuries later. Take a look at this XVII century exponential example, in that only three fingers would fit onto the grip, two fingers left to hold the ricasso. Note that the quillons are welded to the cup bowl rim, and not fixed with interior extensions, the first being a (more) Portuguese way. ... And don't forget to read my suggestions with a pinch of salt; i am only playing by ear . (picture courtesy of "As Armas e os Barões" de Eduardo Nobre). . Attached Images