Please some info about this keris

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2019, 07:32 AM

Yes, if it tests at 8K, that is OK for suwasa, actually, suwasa bubul.

Funny thing is though, the colour on my screen comes up like nickel silver, which would make it mamas.

I've only ever seen suwasa alloyed with copper, and then it comes up looking like rose gold. Peculiar.

Jean · 25th January 2019, 08:39 AM

Hello David,
The pamor pattern of your blade is difficult to identify with some certainty because it is scattered and significantly worn-out. One assumption would be pamor tambal (patch) but I would rather think that it used to be a full pamor pattern such as lar gangsir (cricket wings) but eroded with time. Other opinions are welcome.
Regarding the style of hilt, I agree that it probably originates from Solo but am not sure that it can be classified as Narada Kandha because of its unusual curved shape, see a more typical specimen.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2019, 10:04 AM

This type of hilt is what we call a "kagok" hilt, the word "kagok" means awkward or strange, it is a description rather than a name. This type of kagok hilt with exaggerated angular form is usually associated with Jawa Timur, more to the west than to the East. It really does not belong on this wrongko.

Jean · 25th January 2019, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This type of hilt is what we call a "kagok" hilt, the word "kagok" means awkward or strange, it is a description rather than a name. This type of kagok hilt with exaggerated angular form is usually associated with Jawa Timur, more to the west than to the East. It really does not belong on this wrongko.

Yes I agree, and this hilt looks less old than the kris itself.
Regards

David Gallas · 25th January 2019, 12:04 PM

Dear Mister David, you are correct, but my disappointment was not about the pendok, but more of my own mis about the gold....

Dear Mister Maisey, i agree with what you see. I"ll try to upload some pictures with as bench mark some other keris with pendok, and with a white shit on the background. The pendok is absolute darker. Thank you for the name suasa bubul, i didn't know that!

Dear Mister Jean, i also thought, like you and mister David that it is probably Solo but i was not completely sure because of the odd form. Naranda Khanda is from a spiritual view very plausible because if you can have the messanger of the god as a guard for your pusaka... Looking at an other person with belly, then Bima would also be a great guard, the big hero of the Mahabarata, but doesn't know if that exist.

I also think your right about a twisted pamor. It would be nice to know, a new keris is always a puzzle, trying to get into the mind of the creator of the keris....

Jean · 25th January 2019, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Gallas

Looking at an other person with belly, then Bima would also be a great guard, the big hero of the Mahabarata, but doesn't know if that exist.

Hello David,
The fat hilts could be reminiscent of Semar, I have seen several recent hilts depicting Semar with a big belly on the Dutch kris market.
Regards

David Gallas · 26th January 2019, 05:14 AM

First of all, thnk you all for your analysis!

Just from the feel Mr David, Mr Jean and Mr Maisey, the handle was not original to this keris. Problem is that it is a heirloom, the fact that paman Eugene had this in his hands, and his mother and his grandfather, what makes it impossible to change the grip...
For me it even adds something to the story!

For as far as i have heard this grip was on there since the 1910 1925.
The grip could be changed before that, when given to the grandfather, for what ever reason.

Grip is called deder Kagok, with a link to probably Jawa timor,
Pendok of suasa bubul, >8k.
wranka and keris old, looks Jogya, i thought begin 19th century.
Paintings unknown....

Mr Jean, you are correct, Semar with the cucung....i"ll post a picture of the one i have.

If there is annyone who got a suggestion about the pamor, plaese add...

David Gallas · 26th January 2019, 05:22 AM

Semar grip.

David · 25th January 2019, 05:50 PM

Agreed, the hilt has some age and is well carved, but it appears younger than the rest of this ensemble and i agree with Alan that it does not seem quite right for it.
Alan, i find it is quite often impossible to tell the actual color of objects in internet photos. They are taken by people with a great range of photographic skills and usually not white balanced or color corrected properly to show accurate colors. Most unskilled photographers are therefore at the mercy of the available light they are shooting in matched against the often incorrect accuracy of the auto white balance of whatever level of camera they are shooting with.

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2019, 06:14 PM

You're dead right David, but colour is a significant part of any process of identification, so if I see a pendok that looks more like nickel silver than like any sort of gold I've ever seen, plus the embossing shows characteristics I expect to see in mamas, well, its a bit difficult for me conjure gold out of that image.

In the bottom photo of the new images, the colour is beginning to approach something that might be gold, additionally, the embossing in the toe of the pendok looks more like what I would expect in gold than in mamas.

25th January 2019, 07:32 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, if it tests at 8K, that is OK for suwasa, actually, suwasa bubul. Funny thing is though, the colour on my screen comes up like nickel silver, which would make it mamas. I've only ever seen suwasa alloyed with copper, and then it comes up looking like rose gold. Peculiar. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 25th January 2019 at 10:05 AM.

25th January 2019, 08:39 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello David, The pamor pattern of your blade is difficult to identify with some certainty because it is scattered and significantly worn-out. One assumption would be pamor tambal (patch) but I would rather think that it used to be a full pamor pattern such as lar gangsir (cricket wings) but eroded with time. Other opinions are welcome. Regarding the style of hilt, I agree that it probably originates from Solo but am not sure that it can be classified as Narada Kandha because of its unusual curved shape, see a more typical specimen. Regards Attached Images

25th January 2019, 12:04 PM	#5
David Gallas Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 24	replay Dear Mister David, you are correct, but my disappointment was not about the pendok, but more of my own mis about the gold.... Dear Mister Maisey, i agree with what you see. I"ll try to upload some pictures with as bench mark some other keris with pendok, and with a white shit on the background. The pendok is absolute darker. Thank you for the name suasa bubul, i didn't know that! Dear Mister Jean, i also thought, like you and mister David that it is probably Solo but i was not completely sure because of the odd form. Naranda Khanda is from a spiritual view very plausible because if you can have the messanger of the god as a guard for your pusaka... Looking at an other person with belly, then Bima would also be a great guard, the big hero of the Mahabarata, but doesn't know if that exist. I also think your right about a twisted pamor. It would be nice to know, a new keris is always a puzzle, trying to get into the mind of the creator of the keris.... Attached Images

26th January 2019, 05:14 AM	#7
David Gallas Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 24	Replay First of all, thnk you all for your analysis! Just from the feel Mr David, Mr Jean and Mr Maisey, the handle was not original to this keris. Problem is that it is a heirloom, the fact that paman Eugene had this in his hands, and his mother and his grandfather, what makes it impossible to change the grip... For me it even adds something to the story! For as far as i have heard this grip was on there since the 1910 1925. The grip could be changed before that, when given to the grandfather, for what ever reason. Grip is called deder Kagok, with a link to probably Jawa timor, Pendok of suasa bubul, >8k. wranka and keris old, looks Jogya, i thought begin 19th century. Paintings unknown.... Mr Jean, you are correct, Semar with the cucung....i"ll post a picture of the one i have. If there is annyone who got a suggestion about the pamor, plaese add...

26th January 2019, 05:22 AM	#8
David Gallas Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 24	Semar Semar grip. Attached Images

25th January 2019, 10:04 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	This type of hilt is what we call a "kagok" hilt, the word "kagok" means awkward or strange, it is a description rather than a name. This type of kagok hilt with exaggerated angular form is usually associated with Jawa Timur, more to the west than to the East. It really does not belong on this wrongko.

25th January 2019, 05:50 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Agreed, the hilt has some age and is well carved, but it appears younger than the rest of this ensemble and i agree with Alan that it does not seem quite right for it. Alan, i find it is quite often impossible to tell the actual color of objects in internet photos. They are taken by people with a great range of photographic skills and usually not white balanced or color corrected properly to show accurate colors. Most unskilled photographers are therefore at the mercy of the available light they are shooting in matched against the often incorrect accuracy of the auto white balance of whatever level of camera they are shooting with.

25th January 2019, 06:14 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	You're dead right David, but colour is a significant part of any process of identification, so if I see a pendok that looks more like nickel silver than like any sort of gold I've ever seen, plus the embossing shows characteristics I expect to see in mamas, well, its a bit difficult for me conjure gold out of that image. In the bottom photo of the new images, the colour is beginning to approach something that might be gold, additionally, the embossing in the toe of the pendok looks more like what I would expect in gold than in mamas.