Is this a Black Sea Yatagan?

ariel · 30th December 2018, 10:25 PM

Re: wrapping.
I see what you are referring to: some LB scabbards have a purely decorative panel of tightly woven thin leather ribbons, often black and green ( see attached pics) . Yours has a segment of non-patterned wrapping of a single ribbon that is very loose. My guess, this was not a decoration, but just a way of binding the scabbard to strengthen it.
Re. Anatolian yataghans.
T-pommel is specific only for Zeibek yataghans from Bursa area. This is one of the few infrequent yataghan patterns that is specifically recognized as belonging to a specific group ( see my earlier post).
The rest of Anatolian yataghans had garden variety ears.

Regretfully, I cannot decipher the stamp. Moreover, I cannot recall any LB with a bladesmith's stamp. If they exist, they must be very unusual.

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 10:48 PM

Ariel, I’m just curious to see what else you have in collection, you have such a vast knowledge

. I am by the way from Bursa and familiar with Zeybek Yatagans and they are not usually from Bursa area but rather the Aegean coast, places like Izmir, Aydin and Afyon.Also I think the tightly vowen leather ribbons do have a purpose and they bind the scabbard cover with the leather piece that has a loop for the belt as to allow the knife to be hung from a belt or a rope around the waist. I have seen the same design in some Black Sea knives that I have. And I think it’s common style that comes from Black Sea or Surmene area specifically.
And the cartouche or the makers mark, i said was similar to those on kindjals or quaddaras and not on the LBs.
PS: I greatly enjoy the Laz Yatagan I got from you!
Thank you!

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 11:13 PM

An example

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 11:16 PM

And coupes Black Sea knives with similar vowen leather scabbards

OsobistGB · 31st December 2018, 12:10 AM

Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with

laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan.
Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak.

sfenoid13 · 31st December 2018, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with

laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan.
Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak.

I agree. Nice Laz! Did you make the scabbard ?

ariel · 31st December 2018, 05:04 AM

Years ago , before it was established that those curious contraptions with fancifully curved blades and sharp horns for a pommel were coming from Lazistan, there were passionate arguments about their origin.

There were those who called them Egyptian, because the form of the blade was a dead ringer of an ancient Egyptian khopesh.

Anthony Tirri maintained that they were Algerean, based on some features similar to flissa: very thin heedless-like point and semicircular or slanted heel of the blade.

And there were some who paid attention to the black and green leather ribbons seen on some Sudanese/ Somali daggers.

All these theories went the way of Dodo with the publication of photographs from Lazistan.

Laz Bichaqs are easily recognized, with no similar examples known to man and beast.

But let me agree with Osobist: let us assume that with a lot of imagination one can find some features on the Sphenoid’s yataghan that do resemble some features of Laz Bichaq. IMHO, no matter what, it does not and will not allow us to classify it as true LB.

Weapons tend to borrow or inherently have some similarities with foreign examples. Some Tulwars have prominent false edges, but they are not Ottoman kilijes. Guardless Bukhara sabers are not Caucasian shashkas.

And the weapon presented here is a yataghan, but not a Laz Bichaq, aka Black Sea Yataghan

sfenoid13 · 31st December 2018, 03:43 PM

Ariel thank you for your response and I really appreciate your expertise and knowledge. I completely agree with your opinion. It’s not a Black Sea Yatagan or Laz Bichak or a Laz Yatagan some would call them. Perhaps it’s just a Yatagan from the area; a Yatagan from Black Sea ...

30th December 2018, 10:25 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re: wrapping. I see what you are referring to: some LB scabbards have a purely decorative panel of tightly woven thin leather ribbons, often black and green ( see attached pics) . Yours has a segment of non-patterned wrapping of a single ribbon that is very loose. My guess, this was not a decoration, but just a way of binding the scabbard to strengthen it. Re. Anatolian yataghans. T-pommel is specific only for Zeibek yataghans from Bursa area. This is one of the few infrequent yataghan patterns that is specifically recognized as belonging to a specific group ( see my earlier post). The rest of Anatolian yataghans had garden variety ears. Regretfully, I cannot decipher the stamp. Moreover, I cannot recall any LB with a bladesmith's stamp. If they exist, they must be very unusual. Attached Images

30th December 2018, 11:13 PM	#3
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	An example Attached Images

30th December 2018, 11:16 PM	#4
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	And coupes Black Sea knives with similar vowen leather scabbards Attached Images

31st December 2018, 12:10 AM	#5
OsobistGB Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 95	Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan. Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak. Attached Images

30th December 2018, 10:48 PM	#2
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Ariel, I’m just curious to see what else you have in collection, you have such a vast knowledge . I am by the way from Bursa and familiar with Zeybek Yatagans and they are not usually from Bursa area but rather the Aegean coast, places like Izmir, Aydin and Afyon.Also I think the tightly vowen leather ribbons do have a purpose and they bind the scabbard cover with the leather piece that has a loop for the belt as to allow the knife to be hung from a belt or a rope around the waist. I have seen the same design in some Black Sea knives that I have. And I think it’s common style that comes from Black Sea or Surmene area specifically. And the cartouche or the makers mark, i said was similar to those on kindjals or quaddaras and not on the LBs. PS: I greatly enjoy the Laz Yatagan I got from you! Thank you!

31st December 2018, 05:04 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Years ago , before it was established that those curious contraptions with fancifully curved blades and sharp horns for a pommel were coming from Lazistan, there were passionate arguments about their origin. There were those who called them Egyptian, because the form of the blade was a dead ringer of an ancient Egyptian khopesh. Anthony Tirri maintained that they were Algerean, based on some features similar to flissa: very thin heedless-like point and semicircular or slanted heel of the blade. And there were some who paid attention to the black and green leather ribbons seen on some Sudanese/ Somali daggers. All these theories went the way of Dodo with the publication of photographs from Lazistan. Laz Bichaqs are easily recognized, with no similar examples known to man and beast. But let me agree with Osobist: let us assume that with a lot of imagination one can find some features on the Sphenoid’s yataghan that do resemble some features of Laz Bichaq. IMHO, no matter what, it does not and will not allow us to classify it as true LB. Weapons tend to borrow or inherently have some similarities with foreign examples. Some Tulwars have prominent false edges, but they are not Ottoman kilijes. Guardless Bukhara sabers are not Caucasian shashkas. And the weapon presented here is a yataghan, but not a Laz Bichaq, aka Black Sea Yataghan

31st December 2018, 03:43 PM	#8
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Ariel thank you for your response and I really appreciate your expertise and knowledge. I completely agree with your opinion. It’s not a Black Sea Yatagan or Laz Bichak or a Laz Yatagan some would call them. Perhaps it’s just a Yatagan from the area; a Yatagan from Black Sea ...