Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 30th December 2018, 06:57 AM

Hi Bakerbarang

I can honestly say I have not seen one of these before. You are correct in that it does closely resemble the one featured on Page 62 of MAZANSKY Cyril British Basket-hilted Swords. I have not seen this pear shaped pommel with a hilt featuring this degree of decoration before on a sword of this age. Would you mind posting more pictures, particularly the entire sword and blade and some dimensions, ie, blade width length etc. I will go back though my data base and see what I can find. Also have you tried to flex the blade or is it stiff.

Cheers Cathey

E.B. Erickson · 30th December 2018, 09:31 AM

This nice sword got posted on MyArmoury a couple of days ago. My initial response is below.

You found that on Craigslist!!?? If I wasn't in Thailand I'd pay more attention to CL ads! Nice sword!

At any rate, my initial thought is English, very late 1500s/early 1600s (assuming that someone hasn't done an absolutely great job of forgery on the basket). There are a number of English characteristics on the hilt that are similar to other hilts of the period, like the quillons, which are actually fairly long, but bent back upon themselves.

The main item that would make me think Scottish is the pommel; it has rectangular slots to receive the ends of the hilt, which, as far as I know, may be an indicator of Scots manufacture. The little "langets" at the blade shoulder is also something that hints at Scotland.

Interestingly, look at the crude, undecorated, though nicely shaped, pommel and the rather nice workmanship on the basket. And yet everything appears to have a similar amount of pitting, and the pommel shape is certainly consistent with the early 1600s.

So I guess my vote is English, as per paragraph 2 above. That is not a dogmatic statement, though: feel free to sway me to Scotland with evidence!

By the way, how long is the blade?

--ElJay

Jim McDougall · 30th December 2018, 04:57 PM

Thanks very much Eljay! I would not have imagined this hilt being that early!
I agree though, there are very English factors but the pommel attachment method rings Scottish. Also, the scallop shell ornament, any thoughts?
Very Spanish.....not something often seen in English use as far as I have known.
Cathey looking forward to your results!! Your data base is phenomenal !!!

Cathey · 1st January 2019, 01:09 AM

Hi Guys

Nothing in my data base so this one has me a bit puzzled. It appears to combine elements from at least three early swords featured in Mazansky. No20A Certainly a very similar basket, VII Pear-Shaped Pommel page 23, A15d again same pommel, but very different basket as is the case with A17.

I agree with Eljay this is an early sword but the degree of sophistication of the hilt as apposed to No 20A has thrown me. I am going to try and get contact details for Cryril Mazansky and see if he has access to better pictures of Sword No20A, particularly the underside of the guard. Its times like this that I really miss the Baron of Earlshall.

With regard to British or Scottish refer to post #263, whilst it has features generally attributed to both the seating on the blade has me leaning towards Scottish at this stage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 1st January 2019, 05:41 AM

Hi Guys

The Baron has come to our aid after all. It appears this basket hilt dates between 1575-1600 and is referred to by the Baron of Earlshall in his book "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword Volume 1 c1450 to 1600" as a Slitted Guard basket hilt. The pages to refer to if you have the book are 187-270.

It is described here as Scottish due to the blade slot begin larger than the tang.

Great find as I have never seen one of these in the flesh before, please share more pictures and details such as blade length and width etc.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Bakerbarang · 19th January 2019, 11:37 AM

Humble apologies, everyone, I have been off line for a bit. Work responsibilities has a way of interrupting a perfectly good hobby sometimes!
Thanks to you all for jumping in and offering your knowledge and being so helpful. My knowledge base was just enough to know I had something I needed to take seriously.

However unofficial, I really like the name Slitted Guard Basket Hilt - just nice to have some sort of name to put to this sword.

To answer some questions raised…
I totally agree with leaving this thing alone. I have no intention of “cleaning” it more than in the photos. The active rust is removed it is lightly oiled ant there I’ll stop. Before a police career in forensicscience I was trained as a conservator and worked in a national museum so I have a complete aversion to over cleaning historic objects rather than preserving them. So no worries this sword won’t be messed with.

Re measurements… Over all length 41.25”(1047mm), Blade length 35.1” (894mm), Blade width 1 9/16 (40mm). It is hard to describe how flexible the blade is. I would not describe it as stiff. It has about the same flex as several my mortuary swords but the blade is wider and thus somewhat heaver. (I don't actually collect 17th century swords but have ended up with some mortuary swords which I love and understand better.)

I have added some photos of the blade markings. One photo of the blade as found the rest after a light clean and oiling which, ironically creates reflection that makes them harder to photograph. The markings in the central fuller are the same on both sides of the blade. They appear to be an alternating series of letters I expect more decoration than having any meaning.
X X X o X C X o X C X o X X X
Forgive the poor quality of photos I only have my cell phone handy right now and the lighting is challenging. If there are any indications of blade age or maker from such marks I would be very keen to hear opinions.

Thanks for the references and page numbers particularly to "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword Volume 1 c1450 to 1600" pages 187-270. I don’t have this reference but will try an interlibrary loan next week and see if I can track one down.

I will attempt to get some more phots up in a few days just for interest and will post one of the original terrible Craigslist photos just for fun so you can see what I first saw that got me in the car driving.

Thanks everyone. I so am enjoying this rather steep learning curve.

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2019, 08:03 PM

Thank you for adding more detail and specifications on this phenomenal example! I cannot emphasize enough how important this find is, and I am so grateful that you have shared it here.
As Cathey has noted, the book by the Baron of Earlshall is a powerfully important reference which has brought forward the knowledge and key details on these weapons.

The running wolf on the blade is actually believed to be a kind of talismanic device placed on blades made in Solingen, and became a recognized symbol associated with quality. The 'anchor' (cross with multiple arms) is also a device often used on Spanish blades and adopted in German blade motif.

The curious X's and letters are German applications often imitating the indecipherable groupings of such letters found on many blades. These are typically magic/talismanic acrostics or letters with sometimes numeric values. Often these were patriotic slogans or religious invocations which were 'coded' in this manner. The 'X' represents a cross, and in the position of the letter X may have been perceived as St. Andrews cross in Scotland, and as such among favored symbolism just as the famed 'ANDREA FERARA' markings.

30th December 2018, 06:57 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Sword? Hi Bakerbarang I can honestly say I have not seen one of these before. You are correct in that it does closely resemble the one featured on Page 62 of MAZANSKY Cyril British Basket-hilted Swords. I have not seen this pear shaped pommel with a hilt featuring this degree of decoration before on a sword of this age. Would you mind posting more pictures, particularly the entire sword and blade and some dimensions, ie, blade width length etc. I will go back though my data base and see what I can find. Also have you tried to flex the blade or is it stiff. Cheers Cathey

1st January 2019, 01:09 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Still a Mystery Hi Guys Nothing in my data base so this one has me a bit puzzled. It appears to combine elements from at least three early swords featured in Mazansky. No20A Certainly a very similar basket, VII Pear-Shaped Pommel page 23, A15d again same pommel, but very different basket as is the case with A17. I agree with Eljay this is an early sword but the degree of sophistication of the hilt as apposed to No 20A has thrown me. I am going to try and get contact details for Cryril Mazansky and see if he has access to better pictures of Sword No20A, particularly the underside of the guard. Its times like this that I really miss the Baron of Earlshall. With regard to British or Scottish refer to post #263, whilst it has features generally attributed to both the seating on the blade has me leaning towards Scottish at this stage. Cheers Cathey and Rex

1st January 2019, 05:41 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Slitted Guard basket hilted Hi Guys The Baron has come to our aid after all. It appears this basket hilt dates between 1575-1600 and is referred to by the Baron of Earlshall in his book "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword Volume 1 c1450 to 1600" as a Slitted Guard basket hilt. The pages to refer to if you have the book are 187-270. It is described here as Scottish due to the blade slot begin larger than the tang. Great find as I have never seen one of these in the flesh before, please share more pictures and details such as blade length and width etc. Cheers Cathey and Rex

19th January 2019, 11:37 AM	#6
Bakerbarang Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: British Columbia, Canada. Posts: 4	Slitted Guard Basket Hilted Humble apologies, everyone, I have been off line for a bit. Work responsibilities has a way of interrupting a perfectly good hobby sometimes! Thanks to you all for jumping in and offering your knowledge and being so helpful. My knowledge base was just enough to know I had something I needed to take seriously. However unofficial, I really like the name Slitted Guard Basket Hilt - just nice to have some sort of name to put to this sword. To answer some questions raised… I totally agree with leaving this thing alone. I have no intention of “cleaning” it more than in the photos. The active rust is removed it is lightly oiled ant there I’ll stop. Before a police career in forensicscience I was trained as a conservator and worked in a national museum so I have a complete aversion to over cleaning historic objects rather than preserving them. So no worries this sword won’t be messed with. Re measurements… Over all length 41.25”(1047mm), Blade length 35.1” (894mm), Blade width 1 9/16 (40mm). It is hard to describe how flexible the blade is. I would not describe it as stiff. It has about the same flex as several my mortuary swords but the blade is wider and thus somewhat heaver. (I don't actually collect 17th century swords but have ended up with some mortuary swords which I love and understand better.) I have added some photos of the blade markings. One photo of the blade as found the rest after a light clean and oiling which, ironically creates reflection that makes them harder to photograph. The markings in the central fuller are the same on both sides of the blade. They appear to be an alternating series of letters I expect more decoration than having any meaning. X X X o X C X o X C X o X X X Forgive the poor quality of photos I only have my cell phone handy right now and the lighting is challenging. If there are any indications of blade age or maker from such marks I would be very keen to hear opinions. Thanks for the references and page numbers particularly to "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword Volume 1 c1450 to 1600" pages 187-270. I don’t have this reference but will try an interlibrary loan next week and see if I can track one down. I will attempt to get some more phots up in a few days just for interest and will post one of the original terrible Craigslist photos just for fun so you can see what I first saw that got me in the car driving. Thanks everyone. I so am enjoying this rather steep learning curve. Attached Images

30th December 2018, 09:31 AM	#2
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	This nice sword got posted on MyArmoury a couple of days ago. My initial response is below. You found that on Craigslist!!?? If I wasn't in Thailand I'd pay more attention to CL ads! Nice sword! At any rate, my initial thought is English, very late 1500s/early 1600s (assuming that someone hasn't done an absolutely great job of forgery on the basket). There are a number of English characteristics on the hilt that are similar to other hilts of the period, like the quillons, which are actually fairly long, but bent back upon themselves. The main item that would make me think Scottish is the pommel; it has rectangular slots to receive the ends of the hilt, which, as far as I know, may be an indicator of Scots manufacture. The little "langets" at the blade shoulder is also something that hints at Scotland. Interestingly, look at the crude, undecorated, though nicely shaped, pommel and the rather nice workmanship on the basket. And yet everything appears to have a similar amount of pitting, and the pommel shape is certainly consistent with the early 1600s. So I guess my vote is English, as per paragraph 2 above. That is not a dogmatic statement, though: feel free to sway me to Scotland with evidence! By the way, how long is the blade? --ElJay

30th December 2018, 04:57 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Eljay! I would not have imagined this hilt being that early! I agree though, there are very English factors but the pommel attachment method rings Scottish. Also, the scallop shell ornament, any thoughts? Very Spanish.....not something often seen in English use as far as I have known. Cathey looking forward to your results!! Your data base is phenomenal !!!

19th January 2019, 08:03 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you for adding more detail and specifications on this phenomenal example! I cannot emphasize enough how important this find is, and I am so grateful that you have shared it here. As Cathey has noted, the book by the Baron of Earlshall is a powerfully important reference which has brought forward the knowledge and key details on these weapons. The running wolf on the blade is actually believed to be a kind of talismanic device placed on blades made in Solingen, and became a recognized symbol associated with quality. The 'anchor' (cross with multiple arms) is also a device often used on Spanish blades and adopted in German blade motif. The curious X's and letters are German applications often imitating the indecipherable groupings of such letters found on many blades. These are typically magic/talismanic acrostics or letters with sometimes numeric values. Often these were patriotic slogans or religious invocations which were 'coded' in this manner. The 'X' represents a cross, and in the position of the letter X may have been perceived as St. Andrews cross in Scotland, and as such among favored symbolism just as the famed 'ANDREA FERARA' markings.