Comment?

kai · 19th December 2018, 06:45 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Each society that has adopted the keris as a part of that society's culture has given the keris an understanding that is somewhat at variance with other understandings of the keris.

However, each society owns its own understanding.

Sure, I'm not contesting that.

However, even within a single culture, there seem to be multiple understandings at work:
- keraton-level keris tanguh believes
- "tanguh" assertions for any subpar/average/decent keris (modern)
- ruler/keraton-level pusaka believes
- family-level pusaka believes
- power of pamor types believes
- dukun practises/believes
- folk-level believes
- etc.

Also even neighboring and closely related cultures exhibit differences in such understandings (Solo vs Yogya, etc.).

These understandings within a single culture may influence each other to some extend and get weaved into the fabric of this culture and possibly others as well. For a member of such a culture, any personal understanding (influenced by status, kingroup, social interactions and personal believes/knowledge) may be true and ultimate. However, there is not any singular, monolithic understanding regarding keris, much less any ultimate truth. Even more so for any outsiders.

Quote:

We can study, and with time and dedication learn, the way in which any particular society may understand the keris, and since the keris is an integral part of any society where it exists, this societally based study is really the only valid way in which to approach keris study, if we wish to understand the keris as it is understood in the society where it exists.

Even if were to wish so, this could be next to impossible. Alan, you married into "the" culture and certainly stand a better chance than most of us. Moreover, if one wants to practise any craft/belief/etc., it certainly is paramount to go to the horses mouth and immerse oneself into the originating culture. Been there, done that, too. Still, it often is a thin line between genuinely and truly learning an art from any foreign culture vs mainly nurturing the silk road syndrome as you called it.

In case we happen to be interested in a period that ended more than a very few generations ago, we may only get some glimpse from extant cultures; we also need to accept that a culture from a past period is not directly accessible anymore today and details need to be carefully inferred from secondary/tertiary sources, if at all possible.

Quote:

If we do not wish to understand the keris as it is understood by the people who bear it, but rather as an item that is divorced from its context, then the "scientific approach" could well have a place --- but then we need to ask ourselves just exactly what it is that we are studying.

A perfectly legitimate question, for sure. I'd posit that this isn't a black & white thing though. However, the art analogy we spoke of may be difficult to apply here.

Let's try a religous analogy: If I felt a desire to adopt any religoius faith (e. g. becoming a Roman catholic christian), I'd need to learn the basics and, especially, adopt/develop the corresponding beliefs/faith. Upon proving my sincerity and probably some more formalities, I may get baptized and continue my spiritual journey, especially by immersing myself into the pertinent religous practises/rituals/etc. Spiritual leaders (including an infallible Pope at the top of the hierarchy) will provide continued teaching as well as inspiration, hopefully. Certainly, this doesn't preclude me from discussing topics with lay members, too. I may even have doubts and pressing questions that may not get fully answered by the available clergy.

However, if I were to study the history of the Roman catholic faith or its impact on any societies of interest, I don't need to be of this faith. I'd be heavily dependant on catholic sources including archives and practitioners for sure - I'd also need to locate independent sources though. And I may choose to detach myself from the faith (as well as any detractors) to keep a "neutral" position; I may as well participate as a neutral observer; or I may try to gain additional experience by being a participating observer or even a believer. Obviously, the point of views at the start and even honestly obtained results might be pretty different depending on the approach taken. However, it might prove very valuable to critically discuss any different results/opinions and try to deduce more general "truths" which are not only "owned" by the originating faith/believe/culture but also more or less "valid" for the world at large.

Quote:

The belief system that supports the keris in Jawa and in Bali is only one belief system amongst many others that constitute the fabric of these two societies. I have mentioned Jawa & Bali, because these two societies are the generative societies of the keris. If we are to ever understand the keris , it is here that we must begin, and we must begin with an understanding of these two societies. That understanding must incorporate a thorough understanding of the ways in which the people in these societies see the world around them.

We cannot ever hope to understand the keris as an item taken out of its society, we must recognise that the people of any society own the culture that governs that society, so the people of a society that has the keris as one of their cultural icons own the way in which that keris should be understood.

I'm with you on the level of spiritual believes, etc. However, you have posited that the tangguh system probably developed to assist male members of the nobility in the storage of wealth - a pretty mundane task (even if perfectly reasonable/legitimate). Its interpretation also varies among acknowleged experts - for the more traditional ones a blade with tangguh Majapahit was crafted during the Mojo era according to Mojo pakem while equally qualified proponents also might consider later production. You have shown that the tangguh system is based on circular reasoning; moreover, if only the perceived overall quality of craftsmanship is considered great enough, this belief may even be bent if the observations/features suggest otherwise. And we know that the tangguh system was modified into a caricature by influential circles within this very culture during modern times.

I respect all traditional knowledge and realize that there are many gems to be found if one keeps an open mind. And I also try to understand traditional believes as these have shaped the history of any society. However, trying to get an understanding does not always require one to learn and participate in a belief like the tangguh system. I can see good reasons why one would choose to do so; however, you've made it very clear that this is pretty much impossible for just about anyone participating here.

Quote:

I see our role as students of the keris to understand the belief systems that are the weft of a keris bearing society, one of the strands of belief is the system or systems that provides the society with a way in which to understand the keris. We do not necessarily need to subscribe to that belief system, but we do need to understand it if we are ever going to understand the way in which the keris is understood by the people who own it.

Yes, I agree on trying to continually improve my understanding of the cultures/societies involved; and to show honest respect for their believes and achievements.

Rather than trying to strive for something which is realistically impossible for me, I feel that trying to contribute to keris knowledge with an admittedly non-traditional, possibly scientific approach might be more beneficial for interested people globally (and maybe also for members of keris-bearing cultures).

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2018, 09:26 PM

Thank you for your quite comprehensive statement of opinion , Kai.

Yes, I agree there is more than one road available to reach most destinations, however those roads do not necessarily enter the destination by way of the same gate, if they in fact do not enter the destination, but merely pass by it, and look in at the destination through a window, that which is seen through the window will alter, and will depend upon what is seen.

Is it possible to follow two roads at once?

Well, no, not unless one can become two people.

But it might be possible to follow one road, reach the destination, return to the beginning, and then follow a different road.

Our own individual choices are dependent upon our own individual orientation.

EDIT

I have just now reread my response to Kai's very thoughtful and thorough statement of his opinions, and I feel that this brief response of mine is a trifle dismissive, it really doesn't contribute much. Accordingly I have taken the time to write something that hopefully might contribute a little towards the thought processes of some of us.

The keris is an artefact that was given birth, developed and is owned by a group of people.

The birth of the keris occurred more than 1000 years ago, and since its birth it has fulfilled a number of functions within the society that gave it birth, within that society it has become a cultural artefact. The way in which this artefact has been understood at various times, and in various places, throughout its history has varied as a reflection of its function at any particular time and in any particular place.

No understanding can be dismissed as incorrect, no understanding can be given precedence as the only correct understanding, all understandings are valid for the people of the society and culture that owns the keris.

However, although there may be variation in the understanding of the external character of the keris, the deeper understandings will be found to be constant, but perhaps expressed in varying ways. As with perhaps all things that embody an esoteric element in their nature, there are varying levels of understanding that can apply to any particular thing:- that which is understood by the lay person is not necessarily the understanding of those people who have higher understandings. At the highest level it is usual for only a very limited number of people to achieve that highest level of understanding.

The confusion that currently exists in the various ways in which the keris can be understood is simply the expected result of the erosion of a belief system. This confusion does not in any way lesson the core nature of the keris, all it does is protect that core nature from corruption by denying understanding to those who are not yet ready to receive it.

The undeniable fact that there have been varying ways throughout history in which to understand the keris might seem to be something that is exceedingly difficult to come to terms with, however, in the case of the culture and society that is the owner of the keris, there is a vast pool of literature that is available to assist in gaining an understanding of the ways in which the people of this society acted and reacted throughout at least the last 700 years.

The task of understanding the world view and the thought processes of any people of a past time is undoubtedly difficult, but it is not impossible. Consider this, as children of Western European Culture there are similarities in our own World View, although that World View extends across a number of differing societies. Using our World View and the methods of thought and perception which this world View generates, together with the records from past times, it is not such an impossible task for a person trained in the applicable discipline of investigation to formulate defensible opinions in respect of the way in which our ancestors thought and acted in past times. The key to the process knowledge and empathy.

Similarly, the transition from one cultural understanding to the way in which a different society, drawing upon a different culture, understands the world around them is no more than an exercise in learning. Children learn relatively easily, as we get older that learning process can become slower and more difficult, but it still comes down to one very simple thing:- acknowledge that you know nothing and be prepared to learn from whoever is kind enough to teach. If you think you know something before you have been taught you will never learn anything.

The analogy of keris belief and religious belief is one that I have used frequently, and I do not want to turn this discussion into another sermon, I will mention just three things that might be considered.

Firstly, at their core virtually all religious belief systems have a single universal core belief.
Secondly, there are levels of understanding in all religions:- that which is understood by the common man is not the same as that which is understood by the high priest.
Thirdly, the external levels are always accessible in any belief system, even to those who do not subscribe to the beliefs, but the closer we come to the core the more difficult it becomes to access the understandings that are the property of the highest level of initiates.

The Solonese Tangguh System is often seen as being something of immense importance in gaining an understanding of the keris, and so it is, if the understanding that we wish to gain is an understanding that revolves around monetary values. However, in truth, the Solonese Tangguh System is relatively recent, no more than a couple of hundred years old at most, and it owes much for its existence at all to Dutch Colonial politics.

The Tangguh System is a useful tool for people who collect for the sake of collecting, it is an even more useful tool for people who sell keris, but it will do very little to assist anybody in gaining a deeper understanding of the keris --- unless of course the objective is to gain a deeper understanding of the monetary value of a keris.

True understanding of the keris can proceed in the total absence of the ability to differentiate between a keris classifiable as Mataram Sultan Agungan, and Mataram Senopaten.

However, I doubt that it is possible for anybody to access the understanding of the keris that is the heritage of the people of Jawa and Bali in the absence of a thorough understanding of these people, their societies and their cultures.

Jean · 20th December 2018, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, in truth, the Solonese Tangguh System is relatively recent, no more than a couple of hundred years old at most, and it owes much for its existence at all to Dutch Colonial politics.

Hello Alan,
Could you please elaborate why the Solo tangguh system owes much for its existence to Dutch Colonial politics?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2018, 12:15 PM

Jean, sometimes I say something, or write something without thinking through to the results of what I have said or written. In this Forum, if I see something I can comment on I usually jump in and write a comment, mostly I do not think before responding, I just write.

I should have realised that my "Dutch Colonial Politics" comment would generate a request for further explanation, and this explanation is one that I am not prepared to give --- nor for that matter, able to give --- in the form a very abbreviated post in this Forum.

Why?

Because the response should begin with the Javanese cultural revival that began during the Kartosuro period, and Dutch policies that were put in place to crush the resistance of the Central Javanese aristocracy to Dutch overlordship. The effect on the Javanese elites was something that needed to be compensated for. Tangguh played a part in this compensatory process.

I do plan to publish on this subject in the future.

kai · 20th December 2018, 09:36 PM

Quote:

... Accordingly I have taken the time to write something that hopefully might contribute a little towards the thought processes of some of us.

Thanks, Alan!

Regards,
Kai

Bill M · 21st December 2018, 08:46 AM

Thank you all for your kind and insightful comments. I am learning a lot! Will be bringing more pictures.

19th December 2018, 09:26 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your quite comprehensive statement of opinion , Kai. Yes, I agree there is more than one road available to reach most destinations, however those roads do not necessarily enter the destination by way of the same gate, if they in fact do not enter the destination, but merely pass by it, and look in at the destination through a window, that which is seen through the window will alter, and will depend upon what is seen. Is it possible to follow two roads at once? Well, no, not unless one can become two people. But it might be possible to follow one road, reach the destination, return to the beginning, and then follow a different road. Our own individual choices are dependent upon our own individual orientation. EDIT I have just now reread my response to Kai's very thoughtful and thorough statement of his opinions, and I feel that this brief response of mine is a trifle dismissive, it really doesn't contribute much. Accordingly I have taken the time to write something that hopefully might contribute a little towards the thought processes of some of us. The keris is an artefact that was given birth, developed and is owned by a group of people. The birth of the keris occurred more than 1000 years ago, and since its birth it has fulfilled a number of functions within the society that gave it birth, within that society it has become a cultural artefact. The way in which this artefact has been understood at various times, and in various places, throughout its history has varied as a reflection of its function at any particular time and in any particular place. No understanding can be dismissed as incorrect, no understanding can be given precedence as the only correct understanding, all understandings are valid for the people of the society and culture that owns the keris. However, although there may be variation in the understanding of the external character of the keris, the deeper understandings will be found to be constant, but perhaps expressed in varying ways. As with perhaps all things that embody an esoteric element in their nature, there are varying levels of understanding that can apply to any particular thing:- that which is understood by the lay person is not necessarily the understanding of those people who have higher understandings. At the highest level it is usual for only a very limited number of people to achieve that highest level of understanding. The confusion that currently exists in the various ways in which the keris can be understood is simply the expected result of the erosion of a belief system. This confusion does not in any way lesson the core nature of the keris, all it does is protect that core nature from corruption by denying understanding to those who are not yet ready to receive it. The undeniable fact that there have been varying ways throughout history in which to understand the keris might seem to be something that is exceedingly difficult to come to terms with, however, in the case of the culture and society that is the owner of the keris, there is a vast pool of literature that is available to assist in gaining an understanding of the ways in which the people of this society acted and reacted throughout at least the last 700 years. The task of understanding the world view and the thought processes of any people of a past time is undoubtedly difficult, but it is not impossible. Consider this, as children of Western European Culture there are similarities in our own World View, although that World View extends across a number of differing societies. Using our World View and the methods of thought and perception which this world View generates, together with the records from past times, it is not such an impossible task for a person trained in the applicable discipline of investigation to formulate defensible opinions in respect of the way in which our ancestors thought and acted in past times. The key to the process knowledge and empathy. Similarly, the transition from one cultural understanding to the way in which a different society, drawing upon a different culture, understands the world around them is no more than an exercise in learning. Children learn relatively easily, as we get older that learning process can become slower and more difficult, but it still comes down to one very simple thing:- acknowledge that you know nothing and be prepared to learn from whoever is kind enough to teach. If you think you know something before you have been taught you will never learn anything. The analogy of keris belief and religious belief is one that I have used frequently, and I do not want to turn this discussion into another sermon, I will mention just three things that might be considered. Firstly, at their core virtually all religious belief systems have a single universal core belief. Secondly, there are levels of understanding in all religions:- that which is understood by the common man is not the same as that which is understood by the high priest. Thirdly, the external levels are always accessible in any belief system, even to those who do not subscribe to the beliefs, but the closer we come to the core the more difficult it becomes to access the understandings that are the property of the highest level of initiates. The Solonese Tangguh System is often seen as being something of immense importance in gaining an understanding of the keris, and so it is, if the understanding that we wish to gain is an understanding that revolves around monetary values. However, in truth, the Solonese Tangguh System is relatively recent, no more than a couple of hundred years old at most, and it owes much for its existence at all to Dutch Colonial politics. The Tangguh System is a useful tool for people who collect for the sake of collecting, it is an even more useful tool for people who sell keris, but it will do very little to assist anybody in gaining a deeper understanding of the keris --- unless of course the objective is to gain a deeper understanding of the monetary value of a keris. True understanding of the keris can proceed in the total absence of the ability to differentiate between a keris classifiable as Mataram Sultan Agungan, and Mataram Senopaten. However, I doubt that it is possible for anybody to access the understanding of the keris that is the heritage of the people of Jawa and Bali in the absence of a thorough understanding of these people, their societies and their cultures. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th December 2018 at 03:50 AM.

20th December 2018, 12:15 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, sometimes I say something, or write something without thinking through to the results of what I have said or written. In this Forum, if I see something I can comment on I usually jump in and write a comment, mostly I do not think before responding, I just write. I should have realised that my "Dutch Colonial Politics" comment would generate a request for further explanation, and this explanation is one that I am not prepared to give --- nor for that matter, able to give --- in the form a very abbreviated post in this Forum. Why? Because the response should begin with the Javanese cultural revival that began during the Kartosuro period, and Dutch policies that were put in place to crush the resistance of the Central Javanese aristocracy to Dutch overlordship. The effect on the Javanese elites was something that needed to be compensated for. Tangguh played a part in this compensatory process. I do plan to publish on this subject in the future.

21st December 2018, 08:46 AM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thank you all for your kind and insightful comments. I am learning a lot! Will be bringing more pictures.