The Syrian Jambiya/Khanjar

Montagnard · 19th December 2018, 06:42 PM

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...

But now I think it might be an original?

From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?

Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

Kubur · 20th December 2018, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montagnard

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...
But now I think it might be an original?
From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?
Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

Hi,
First this tourist stories are nonsense, many forum members are talking about that but most of the weapons here are for tourists, the question is more are they old and are they produced manually / traditionally? Did they have been used by locals too?
You can put in this "bag" most of the Indian and Persian weapons from the end of the 19th and early 20th c.
Your dagger is a Syrian Magdali or Majdali, probably 1930-40, during the French mandate. Did the Syrians or Druze in fact (for this area) used this dagger? the answser is yes, did they sell souvenirs to the French and the first tourists? the answser is yes.
So be carreful on this forum, you will see members with very strong ideas and opinions, but they are just opinions, this statment includes myself.
Your dagger is engraved instead of the classic acid etching and the hilt is decorated only on one face that is a very good sign.
I don't know for the inscription sometimes it's just written "souvenir de Syrie", it's not a joke...
Kubur

A.alnakkas · 20th December 2018, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montagnard

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...

But now I think it might be an original?

From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?

Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

Whether it is original or not is a matter of opinion. Is a mass produced dagger made in Syrian design and in Syria an authentic representation of historic Syrian daggers? it is up to you to decide.

Those daggers are made with plastic hilts and sometimes synthetic MoP with brass and etched sheet steel blades. They look not so different compared to the older ones except in quality and in fine details. Older blades are high quality with some having complicated fullering.

Yours is no different from pieces mass produced in the 2000's, they could be commonly found in antique shops around the Arab world.

Majdalis from the early 20th century are generally of high quality for what they are.

motan · 22nd December 2018, 11:26 AM

Hello all,
I agree with some of Kubur's and A.alnakkas' comments, but disagree with others. The identification by A.alnakkas is, I think, correct. Montagnard's dagger is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. dagger made exclusively for the souvenir market. They are made to this day not only in Syria, but in Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan en China.
However, I also agree with Kubur that the distinction between tourist and original pieces is not clear-cut, especially where locals still carry daggers, or have done so until recently like in Morocco, Oman, UAE, KSA, Jordan, Afghanistan and several others.
If your aim is to collect nice weapons, you may not care too much about authenticity. If you are more interested in the ethnographic aspect, like I am, it could matter a lot. I personally prefer pieces with signs of use to pristine ones because that way I can be sure. Most collectors prefer 100% clean examples. So, there is a continuum between tourist and authentic items and it is a matter of personal preference what you consider "original".

As for Majdali daggers, it is true that early pieces are generally of better quality, but this is certainly not 1:1 relationship. There are old ones of mediocre quality, like the very first example in this thread, and later ones of excellent quality like in my picture (from Artzi's site). There was a particular low point of quality around or just before 1960 (see DaveA's third example in this thread-sorry DaveA, but your second one is also the best and oldest in this thread) so that you can not really say that modern ones are worse.

Montagnard · 22nd December 2018, 11:49 AM

Dear Gentlemen,

since my dagger has not the slightest traces of use, I finally follow the conclusion that it is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. piece made exclusively for the souvenir market.

Thank you all for your expertise.
Montagnard

Kubur · 22nd December 2018, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hello all,
I agree with some of Kubur's and A.alnakkas' comments, but disagree with Montagnard's dagger is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. dagger made exclusively for the souvenir market.
As for Majdali daggers, it is true that early pieces are generally of better quality, but this is certainly not 1:1 relationship.

Hi Motan,
I was waiting for your comment.
Of course I agree with alnakas and you and all your comments.
I disagree with you about the date, I think you're unfair, it's not a late 20th c.
Look at the scabbard it doesnt look like a 2 thick brass pieces but more like a wooden one with brass sheat.
I also disagree with myself and my comment about engraved or acid etched, old ones are also acid etched...
Motan you were looking for a very good and old majdali and i was looking for the same thing. I think i found one and i didnt find anything similar on the web. But I found some Ottoman knives 18th c. with the same design. What I found is not from the 18th c. but its a very strange bird and most probably from the 19th c...
Kubur

motan · 22nd December 2018, 03:53 PM

Hi Kubur,
Thanks for your reply, and please show me what you found. I know some things these daggers, but not nearly enough to draw a general picture on their development.
As I see it, you already have a very early example - if what you showed in your 2016 post on this thread is from your collection. The sign of old ones are the copper plates on the hilt with decoration and writing. This type developed into the general family of broad, heavy blade daggers with etching near the hilt. The other type, with fullers, like the one in my previous post, came a bit later. Both type were made in Majdal Shams, but perhaps in other places too. There are several types of Syrian daggers that share some characteristics with Majdali-type, but are distinct (see pics for 2 examples). The oldest dates on Majdalis are from 1900, but they do not appear to be the oldest ones. So, the Majdali type probably developed in the late 19th c., based on similar types already made in Syria

Bob A · 22nd December 2018, 05:31 PM

As it happens, I have the example from Artzi's site and Motan's post above.
Two pics to show otherwise unseen features:

Kubur · 22nd December 2018, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Kubur,
Thanks for your reply, and please show me what you found.

I will, it's always nice to tchat with open mind forum members, ready to exchange and share experiences. After all it should be always like that on this forum if we have a common interest or shared passion...
I think that you are too pessimistic with a late 19th c.date. In Buttin you have some from the late 19th c. and I'm sure that you can find some even earlier, but I agree with you not before the 19th c.

motan · 23rd December 2018, 09:02 PM

Hello again,
Yes Kubur. I agree with you. It is very possible that production started earlier, I just don't have proof. It is rare to see Majdali type daggers in a book. Can you produce a larger picture? Dates on old Majdalis is quite common, but consistently start at around 1900. See first picture - clearly 1318 Hijri - 1900 Gregorian.
Bob A, this is indeed the very same dagger. Artzi says in his site that they are all from Majdal Shams. What I think is that the ones he sells are indeed all from there, but other production sites do exist. Good ones are becoming rare, so a good purchase.
Colin, yours is a good and old example of the heavy blade - oval hilt type, but the decoration style is slightly different from most, with many vertical elements on the hilt. I have seen several and they may be from one workshop. I have no idea what it says about their origin. A similar style in pic 2
Stuart, yours is indeed a unique example, probably made on special order. Very high quality work and an a-typical but very good scabbard in Ottoman style. Straight blades are known, but rare. I know you don't have it anymore, but do you happen to have a good picture of the back of the hilt? It is signed by the maker and I think I know who he is - Iskander. This workshop made top-notch pieces in the round handle/fullered blade style. I recognize the decorative element in the middle of the hilt. I have seen several signed examples - see pictures

kahnjar1 · 22nd December 2018, 07:18 PM

Here is a thread from 10 years ago relating to a straight bladed Syrian? dagger I once owned. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959
Thought it worth to throw this one in to the mix again.
Stu

Kubur · 22nd December 2018, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Here is a thread from 10 years ago relating to a straight bladed Syrian? dagger I once owned. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959
Thought it worth to throw this one in to the mix again.
Stu

Hi Stu,
One of the best that i saw on this forum.

Montagnard · 23rd December 2018, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I disagree with you about the date, I think you're unfair, it's not a late 20th c.
Look at the scabbard it doesnt look like a 2 thick brass pieces but more like a wooden one with brass sheat.
I also disagree with myself and my comment about engraved or acid etched, old ones are also acid etched...
Kubur

Hi Kubur,

your assumption is correct: it is a wooden scabbard with brass sheat.
I conclude that you stick to your earlier statement, that "it is a Syrian Magdali or Majdali, probably 1930-40, during the French mandate" - right?

Also: Do you know what the engraved inscription means?

Thx,
Montagnard

19th December 2018, 06:42 PM	#1
Montagnard Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 7	Another Damascus type??? At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger... But now I think it might be an original? From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving? Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome BR, Montagnard Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 11:26 AM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hello all, I agree with some of Kubur's and A.alnakkas' comments, but disagree with others. The identification by A.alnakkas is, I think, correct. Montagnard's dagger is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. dagger made exclusively for the souvenir market. They are made to this day not only in Syria, but in Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan en China. However, I also agree with Kubur that the distinction between tourist and original pieces is not clear-cut, especially where locals still carry daggers, or have done so until recently like in Morocco, Oman, UAE, KSA, Jordan, Afghanistan and several others. If your aim is to collect nice weapons, you may not care too much about authenticity. If you are more interested in the ethnographic aspect, like I am, it could matter a lot. I personally prefer pieces with signs of use to pristine ones because that way I can be sure. Most collectors prefer 100% clean examples. So, there is a continuum between tourist and authentic items and it is a matter of personal preference what you consider "original". As for Majdali daggers, it is true that early pieces are generally of better quality, but this is certainly not 1:1 relationship. There are old ones of mediocre quality, like the very first example in this thread, and later ones of excellent quality like in my picture (from Artzi's site). There was a particular low point of quality around or just before 1960 (see DaveA's third example in this thread-sorry DaveA, but your second one is also the best and oldest in this thread) so that you can not really say that modern ones are worse. Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 11:49 AM	#5
Montagnard Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 7	Exciting exchange Dear Gentlemen, since my dagger has not the slightest traces of use, I finally follow the conclusion that it is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. piece made exclusively for the souvenir market. Thank you all for your expertise. Montagnard

22nd December 2018, 03:53 PM	#7
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur, Thanks for your reply, and please show me what you found. I know some things these daggers, but not nearly enough to draw a general picture on their development. As I see it, you already have a very early example - if what you showed in your 2016 post on this thread is from your collection. The sign of old ones are the copper plates on the hilt with decoration and writing. This type developed into the general family of broad, heavy blade daggers with etching near the hilt. The other type, with fullers, like the one in my previous post, came a bit later. Both type were made in Majdal Shams, but perhaps in other places too. There are several types of Syrian daggers that share some characteristics with Majdali-type, but are distinct (see pics for 2 examples). The oldest dates on Majdalis are from 1900, but they do not appear to be the oldest ones. So, the Majdali type probably developed in the late 19th c., based on similar types already made in Syria Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 05:31 PM	#8
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	As it happens, I have the example from Artzi's site and Motan's post above. Two pics to show otherwise unseen features: Attached Images Last edited by Bob A; 22nd December 2018 at 05:43 PM.

23rd December 2018, 09:02 PM	#10
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hello again, Yes Kubur. I agree with you. It is very possible that production started earlier, I just don't have proof. It is rare to see Majdali type daggers in a book. Can you produce a larger picture? Dates on old Majdalis is quite common, but consistently start at around 1900. See first picture - clearly 1318 Hijri - 1900 Gregorian. Bob A, this is indeed the very same dagger. Artzi says in his site that they are all from Majdal Shams. What I think is that the ones he sells are indeed all from there, but other production sites do exist. Good ones are becoming rare, so a good purchase. Colin, yours is a good and old example of the heavy blade - oval hilt type, but the decoration style is slightly different from most, with many vertical elements on the hilt. I have seen several and they may be from one workshop. I have no idea what it says about their origin. A similar style in pic 2 Stuart, yours is indeed a unique example, probably made on special order. Very high quality work and an a-typical but very good scabbard in Ottoman style. Straight blades are known, but rare. I know you don't have it anymore, but do you happen to have a good picture of the back of the hilt? It is signed by the maker and I think I know who he is - Iskander. This workshop made top-notch pieces in the round handle/fullered blade style. I recognize the decorative element in the middle of the hilt. I have seen several signed examples - see pictures Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 07:18 PM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Back to the future............. Here is a thread from 10 years ago relating to a straight bladed Syrian? dagger I once owned. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959 Thought it worth to throw this one in to the mix again. Stu Attached Images