Elephant swords

Jens Nordlunde · 14th December 2018, 02:23 PM

Ariel, it is an interesting experiment you have made.
When reading the description the old travelers give they are a bit loose, as to how the chain 'trick' was made, so it may have been as you say, the chain was wrapped around the trunk - an armoured trunk so to say.

mahratt · 14th December 2018, 02:45 PM

Very interesting experiment

But the only thing he proves is that the person who does this experiment is not an elephant

ariel · 14th December 2018, 05:11 PM

Fernando,
My guess is that the chain might have been wrapped around by the handlers, and teaching the creature to hold the free end in its trunk tip might have been relatively easier than teaching it to endure self-inflicted pain.

The bottom line, we shall never know exactly the particulars of elephants' training for war, their tactics, equipment, problems etc. We can only surmise and make our best guesses assuming that our logic is similar to the native one. However, when I try to read Elgood's book on Hindu rituals or discussions in our Kris Forum, I understand how far apart we are....

This art died more than 300 years ago, and we are left with only occasional hearsay accounts by European travellers and snippets of old local stories, both of unproven veracity. The locals did not leave us much: Charney ruefully describes virtual absence of written accounts from SE Asia due to humid climate and insects. Even more durable antiquities fare not better: I went to the Royal Palace in Bangkok to see their collection of old weapons. They were all nicely arranged outside in the open shelving and covered in red rust. Ain't no Louvre or British Library, folks....

Ian · 14th December 2018, 06:43 PM

This has been an interesting and "freewheeling" discussion but has strayed a long way from the original topic of "elephant swords." Chains and how to restrain elephants, etc. is some distance from the OP. Perhaps we could get back to Jens initial ideas.

Ian.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th December 2018, 08:45 PM

I agree with Ian, and hope the discussion will come back to the elephant swords.
How would an elephant hold a sword?
Could the sword have had a 'katar hilt', which would have been more natural for an elephant to hold?

ariel · 15th December 2018, 01:10 AM

Question:

Except for a cockamamie painting in post #42 ( the one with half-human monsters) and an even cockamamier tall tale that Afanasij Nikitin planned to tell his Tver neighbors in the middle of nowhere, do we have any reliable suggestion that trunk swords ever existed?

Again, I go to Wiki:

Kentar is an Indian and Arabic modification of Latin Centennarius further modified intoGreek kentenarion and Arabic kentar.
In different countries at different times it’s value was either 100 lbs or 100 kg.
Then, direct quote:
“ In India and Albania (kuintal), the quintal as equivalent to 100 kilogram was imported via Arabic influence and is a standard measurement of mass for agricultural products”

See post #6: estimate of Procopius was exactly the same.

So, are we to believe in 100 kg swords. attached to tusks and to trunk?

Any info on 100 kg patas or katars?

mahratt · 15th December 2018, 09:58 AM

It is very interesting for me, is the transmission of incorrect information - is it an inability to use the Internet or a conscious desire to distort the facts? (I am writing in advance for moderators that there are no insults in my words. This is a rhetorical question posed to the infinity of internet space

)

I do not dispute the fact that in some countries, the kentar could be 100 kg. But Afanasy Nikitin was a Russian and used the Russian measures of weight, recognised at the time.

Kentar is a Russian measure of mass, weight, introduced in the 15th century. In the 15-17 centuries, Kontar was equal to 2.5 pounds or 40.95 kg.
100 kg and 41 kg is a noticeable difference.

http://sainfo.ru/units/info.php?t=400215

ariel · 14th December 2018, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, it is an interesting experiment you have made.
When reading the description the old travelers give they are a bit loose, as to how the chain 'trick' was made, so it may have been as you say, the chain was wrapped around the trunk - an armoured trunk so to say.

I learned the art of constructing an experiment from my mentor and the stories about Enrico Fermi: make it simple, stupid:-)

During the first test of atomic bomb Fermi stood some kilometers away from the explosion site with pieces of torn paper in his fist. He raised his hand and opened his fist at the moment of the arrival of the explosion wave : the paper pieces flew away. He looked how far away they flew, made a couple of calculations in his head and announced the power of the explosion. His answer was >10 kiloton. Actually, it was 18.6.

He was famous for his power of estimation of unknown phenomena using intuitive information. His most famous question to Ph.D. candidates in physics at the University of Chicago was: how many piano tuners are in Chicago? No Yellow Pages were allowed.

I learned a lot from these lessons, but still wish I was half as smart.....

15th December 2018, 09:58 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It is very interesting for me, is the transmission of incorrect information - is it an inability to use the Internet or a conscious desire to distort the facts? (I am writing in advance for moderators that there are no insults in my words. This is a rhetorical question posed to the infinity of internet space ) I do not dispute the fact that in some countries, the kentar could be 100 kg. But Afanasy Nikitin was a Russian and used the Russian measures of weight, recognised at the time. Kentar is a Russian measure of mass, weight, introduced in the 15th century. In the 15-17 centuries, Kontar was equal to 2.5 pounds or 40.95 kg. 100 kg and 41 kg is a noticeable difference. http://sainfo.ru/units/info.php?t=400215 Attached Images

14th December 2018, 02:23 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, it is an interesting experiment you have made. When reading the description the old travelers give they are a bit loose, as to how the chain 'trick' was made, so it may have been as you say, the chain was wrapped around the trunk - an armoured trunk so to say.

14th December 2018, 02:45 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Very interesting experiment But the only thing he proves is that the person who does this experiment is not an elephant

14th December 2018, 05:11 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fernando, My guess is that the chain might have been wrapped around by the handlers, and teaching the creature to hold the free end in its trunk tip might have been relatively easier than teaching it to endure self-inflicted pain. The bottom line, we shall never know exactly the particulars of elephants' training for war, their tactics, equipment, problems etc. We can only surmise and make our best guesses assuming that our logic is similar to the native one. However, when I try to read Elgood's book on Hindu rituals or discussions in our Kris Forum, I understand how far apart we are.... This art died more than 300 years ago, and we are left with only occasional hearsay accounts by European travellers and snippets of old local stories, both of unproven veracity. The locals did not leave us much: Charney ruefully describes virtual absence of written accounts from SE Asia due to humid climate and insects. Even more durable antiquities fare not better: I went to the Royal Palace in Bangkok to see their collection of old weapons. They were all nicely arranged outside in the open shelving and covered in red rust. Ain't no Louvre or British Library, folks....

14th December 2018, 06:43 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,411	This has been an interesting and "freewheeling" discussion but has strayed a long way from the original topic of "elephant swords." Chains and how to restrain elephants, etc. is some distance from the OP. Perhaps we could get back to Jens initial ideas. Ian.

14th December 2018, 08:45 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I agree with Ian, and hope the discussion will come back to the elephant swords. How would an elephant hold a sword? Could the sword have had a 'katar hilt', which would have been more natural for an elephant to hold?

15th December 2018, 01:10 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Question: Except for a cockamamie painting in post #42 ( the one with half-human monsters) and an even cockamamier tall tale that Afanasij Nikitin planned to tell his Tver neighbors in the middle of nowhere, do we have any reliable suggestion that trunk swords ever existed? Again, I go to Wiki: Kentar is an Indian and Arabic modification of Latin Centennarius further modified intoGreek kentenarion and Arabic kentar. In different countries at different times it’s value was either 100 lbs or 100 kg. Then, direct quote: “ In India and Albania (kuintal), the quintal as equivalent to 100 kilogram was imported via Arabic influence and is a standard measurement of mass for agricultural products” See post #6: estimate of Procopius was exactly the same. So, are we to believe in 100 kg swords. attached to tusks and to trunk? Any info on 100 kg patas or katars?