Elephant swords

[ariel]

I'd like to see people nailing chains with some kind of stakes to the ground while dealing with panicky animal running in each and every direction at maximal speed:-)
IMHO, the stakes would be pulled out withing a second, and the " nailers" would be squished.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

I'd like to see people nailing chains with some kind of stakes to the ground while dealing with panicky animal running in each and every direction at maximal speed:-)
IMHO, the stakes would be pulled out withing a second, and the " nailers" would be squished.

You are underestimating the intimacy between these animals and their tamers; soon as feel they are about to panic, they transmit them a body sign: hold (peg me) me or i'll run the heck out of here .

Now seriously, did you know elephants can be taught up to 1,000 oral commands ? Alvaro Velho, when describing how females are 'instructed' to entice males to fall into the traps, mentions the catchers speaking up such commands to them.

[fernando]

Another technique would be, not pegging (as per caption author's conclusion) but shorten the chain within a quick sliding system, so that the animal can not run due to not being able to stretch his legs enough to a faster moving. This would not be an unprecedented procedure .

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by fernando

Another technique would be, not pegging (as per caption author's conclusion) but shorten the chain within a quick sliding system, so that the animal can not run due to not being able to stretch his legs enough to a faster moving. This would not be an unprecedented procedure .

Absolutely right!

[ariel]

Originally Posted by fernando

Another technique would be, not pegging (as per caption author's conclusion) but shorten the chain within a quick sliding system, so that the animal can not run due to not being able to stretch his legs enough to a faster moving. This would not be an unprecedented procedure .

Perhaps. No doubt elephants were used as war machines and the means to control then were necessary and thus reasonably well developed. However, we are talking about the veracity of the descriptions of these methods.

I could find no mention of restricting their stride by adjusting chain length. On the contrary, leg chains were clearly described as “pegged” or “nailed” to the ground which, IMHO, is highly doubtful taking into account massive bulk and strength of the animals. I have read that when the animal went berserk, the mahout just severed his spinal cord adjacent to the skull.

My question, therefore, is whether we can discard these “ humane” descriptions? Do we have a right to propose ( or invent) alternative techniques ( chain length manipulation) in the absense of any evidence to their existence?

Pics in Post #77 have important relation to our topic, i. e. India. They are from SE Asia, where real war elephants were used as battle machines as late as 1895 against French.

Recommended book: Michael W. Charney “Southeast Asian Warfare 1300-1900”
Has a big chapter on war elephants.

Originally Posted by fernando

Another technique would be, not pegging (as per caption author's conclusion) but shorten the chain within a quick sliding system, so that the animal can not run due to not being able to stretch his legs enough to a faster moving. This would not be an unprecedented procedure .

Perhaps. No doubt elephants were used as war machines and the means to control then were necessary and thus reasonably well developed. However, we are talking about the veracity of the descriptions of these methods.

I could find no mention of restricting their stride by adjusting chain length. On the contrary, leg chains were clearly described as “pegged” or “nailed” to the ground which, IMHO, is highly doubtful taking into account massive bulk and strength of the animals.
My question, therefore, is whether we can discard these descriptions? Do we have a right to propose ( or invent) alternative techniques in the absense of any evidence to their existence?

Book by M.W. Charney” Southeast Asian Warfare 1300-1900” has a very big chapter about war elephants.
Salient points:
-mad elephants either wrecked havoc on their own troops and ran away from the battlefield or were killed;
- no mention of any nailing to the ground or adjusting the length of leg chains as a means of control;
-at ~1650 the use of tusk swords ( Pikes) was recorded;
- Bowery ( 1905) mentions that Sumatran animals had a 4.5-6 m chain tied to their front leg and the elephant coiled it around his trunk. That was their only weapon. Flinging the armored trunk laid low both men and horses. No free-hanging chains are mentioned;
- riders might have been armed with muskets or small swivel-guns;
- their use was limited by their skittishness and predictability: one society after another ceased to employ them as war machines;
-introduction of large caliber firepower eliminated the use of war animals by 18 century;

[mahratt]

Sometimes just need to carefully look at the miniatures that were drawn at the time when war elephants were used. On the images everything is clearly visible. Although, of course, it would be better to have the opportunity to refer to the recollections of eyewitnesses, who themselves saw the peculiarities of the use of war elephants.

[ariel]

Regretfully, all the materials discussed here suggest very strongly that that the miniatures showing fancy trunk swords and kilometers of leg chains are .. ehhh.. how to say it mildly? ..artistic license and that Nikitin’ et al accounts of 100-500 kg tusk swords are physically impossible. Travelers to new and exotic places always exaggerate and fantasize: men with dog heads, armed monkeys, half-men/half-boars, stone forts on animal’s backs, numbers of gorgeous women they had sex with, size of fish they caught, casino winnings etc

As they say, show me the money, i.e. physical examples. Up till now we saw short-bladed tusk daggers and nothing more.

[mahratt]

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