Elephant swords

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

….noting I had not yet seen these CREATIVE artists showing blazing cannon from an elephants howdah...

Just say the word .


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[ariel]

Not only this elephant carries a stone fort with 4 cannons on his back, but he also emits fire and brimstone from his trunk. That’s what I call irrefutable evidentiary value of iconography :-)

[Jens Nordlunde]

In The Encyclopedia of the Sword by Nick Evangelista I found the text below on p. 203.
Some of the old texts mention trunk swords, while other mention tusk swords, and some of the measurers/weights mentioned must be wrong, although I think the tusk swords might have been heavier than the trunk swords.

[fernando]

The whole description in Stone's work reads, in page 216:

"ELEPHANT SWORD.
Many of the early travelers in the East speak of elephant swords. Ludovici di Varthema (1501-1568) says that they were two fatoms* long and attached to the trunk. More reasonable accounts describe them as blades projecting from sockets slipped over the tusks. (Burton Sword 216). Moser illustrates a pair of the latter description."

* twelve foot. Obviously an exorbitance.

[Jim McDougall]

Amazing you guys!!!
These entries carry perfectly what I was trying to say. These entries could not say it better. The 'license' employed in these artworks and embellishment in these accounts illustrate the metaphors and simile often present in metaphysical and elaborate accounts of figures and events.

I really appreciate all these great references, and it really adds a lot to getting to the bottom of all these tales and lore. A stone fort on an elephants back firing cannon!! and 12 foot swords on an elephants trunk!!!......weights!!…..100 pound swords on the tusks!!!??????? really????

Thank you guys!

[fernando]

The great historian João de Barros (1496-1570) author of "ASIA", in decade III, Book IV, Chaper IV, narrating a war between the Kings of Narsinga and Hidalcan, mentions:

Of all his people of war, those on horses wore cotton laudeis (lamelar cushion vests) both in body as in head and arms, all so hard that would defend any spear blow, as if they were iron blades.
And the harnessed horses were also armed in the same manner, and equally the elephants, each one carrying his castle, from which four men fought, and in the teeth (tusks) were placed opposed bisarmas (bulky bills), hence so slicers that nothing could bear them.


Although i used the Web to easier locate this part, i have my own three tome 1945 edition .


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[Jens Nordlunde]

I think it is fantastic what we have found out about the elephant armouring, a lot due to Frenando - thank you very much.
It is a part of the Indian wars, especially the earlier wars, of which we know very little, but it is fascinating all the same.
Now it would be just as fascinating to get a view of the early Indian weapons. I know they are few, but does someone have some to share?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I think it is fantastic what we have found out about the elephant armouring, a lot due to Fernando - thank you very much...

My pleasure, Jens; i have also learnt a lot myself .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Although I do love the miniatures Fernando shows, you should be aware of, that they are not always correct - the miniatures. As there can always be the artistical elemnt, but the later miniatures are mostly correct - I think.

[ariel]

Re: image of trunk sword in Moser 1912.
I have 1925 and 1955 editions: nothing there.

Anybody here has 1912 edition ?

I also went through a Russian book by K.S. Nosov “ Traditional weapons of India” EKSNO, Moscow 2011.

Apparently, the author visited several museums in India and the Leeds Armoury. He photographed mainly the entire glass-covered panels of various weapons and some individual examples. Virtually all photos are very small, and details are not discernible. A lot of pictures are republished from other sources ( quite a lot from Elgood) without attribution.
There is one drawing of a trunk sword of unknown provenance, dimensions and details. It looks just like one in Post # 14.
The text is intriguing:
( Translation is mine)

“Afanasij Nikitin reported that Indians attached big and heavy swords to trunks and tusks of elephants. Such practice is confirmed by other sources. For example, even at the beginning of the VI century one Sun Yun, a Chinese traveler, reported the existence of swords attached to the trunks of war elephants (Kistler, “War elephants”, Westport- London, 2006). In addition, other implements tied to the trunks were maces, scythes and even chains. Chains were as terrible as swords. Imagine an elephant swinging a trunk to which two or three segments of chain weighing about 100 kg each! The tusk swords were not less dangerous. There are known instances when an elephant was throwing its victim high in the air and then cut it in half with sword blades. Additionally, tusk swords were often covered with poison to frighten enemy combatants who did not dare to approach the elephant.
....Chains were also tied to elephant’s legs and those allowed “pegging” the animal to the ground if it started panicking” ( the latter refers to the image shown in Post #41)


Well, we have discussed fantastic stories coming from ancient authors. Regretfully, the modern ones are not better....

[silberschatzimsee]

Originally Posted by fernando

This perhaps a more refutable version !


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i feel sad for that animal

[ariel]

Fernando,
Re. elephant-mounted machine gunner.
AFAIK, every elephant required a mahout, i.e. driver. This person straddled elephant's neck and controlled the animal with an ankus.

Somehow I wouldn't like to work as a mahout in the situation shown in the above photo, with the barrel of a large caliber machine gun right behind the back of my head:-)

Something is fishy here: either this is a:
1. staged picture,
2. stationary and uncontrolled elephant ( which beats the purpose of machine gun's mobility), or
3. the army is in the process of hiring a new and still breathing mahout.

[mahratt]

Here are two interesting photos.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Did they drug the elephants, like they did with the soldiers?


Moser 1912, plate XXIX, nos512-513. Weapon, to mount of the tooths of elephants.
Sorry for the bad quality.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Did they drug the elephants, like they did with the soldiers?...

Maybe not Jens. Not that they wouldn't consider doing so but, drugs often result in an unpredictable mode, like inverting their effects, which with such huge guys it would be rather inconvenient.

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Moser 1912, plate XXIX, nos512-513. Weapon, to mount of the tooths of elephants.
Sorry for the bad quality.

Still a good picture ... and certainly an enlightening one ... Ariel ?