Comment?

Jean · 8th December 2018, 08:37 AM

I have a preliminary opinion but it would be easier to assess if Gustav could post a pic of the greneng on the ganja tail & wadidang

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2018, 08:56 AM

Jean, the ron dha on the jenggot should not vary from the ron dha on the gonjo or wadidang. The ron dha we can see is the ron dha of the maker.

Is this ron dha identical to the ron dha shown by Haryoguritno?

I'm not asking if the keris is truly by Jayasukadgo, it is not possible to do that, I am only asking if Haryoguritno's Jayasukadgo ron dha is the same as Gustav's Jayasukadgo ron dha.

kai · 8th December 2018, 11:00 AM

Hello Alan,

I'll play...

Quote:

I'm not asking if the keris is truly by Jayasukadgo, it is not possible to do that, I am only asking if Haryoguritno's Jayasukadgo ron dha is the same as Gustav's Jayasukadgo ron dha.

Setting aside vagaries of relying on drawings (even if fairly accurate), It certainly doesn't look identical. I'll try to post a comparison pic later...

I would expect the ron dha of the jenggot to be the last to yield to any erosion/restoration (followed by any on the gonjo while any on the wadidang are likely to fade into oblivion first).

I can see how one would expect a 100 year old keris (or any well-preserved blade, especially from museum collections) would be expected tolook original. However, any worn blade will have seen several revisions over its life time. I have a hard time to believe that any "signature" would survive unscathed; and, if so, the artisan(s) doing the revision(s) would need to be able to "fake" the signature. Seems like opening Pandora's box to me...

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 8th December 2018, 11:48 AM

My reply is: no, they are not identical, see pics.

kai · 8th December 2018, 11:50 AM

Often fotos are not taken at the right angle (exactly vertically from the main features) - this one seems to be fairly ok though.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2018, 06:51 PM

Yeah, that's easier to compare, I should have done that myself, didn't think of it.

Thanks Kai.

Yes, a blade can become worn over time, however, the wear on a Jayasukadgo is going to be minimal, if there is any at all. With a Jayasukadgo we are are considering a blade that has been made in modern times, more or less 100 years old. It was a very expensive blade to begin with, and it is reasonable to assume that it has only ever been used as a dress accessory, never as a weapon, and never subjected to rough treatment.

Given that the Haryoguritno drawings show the perfect signature, it seems to me that the extremely wide variation between Haryoguritno's ron dha, and the ron dha on Gustav's keris suggests that either Haryoguritno's representation is incorrect, or the attribution of Jayasukadgo to the detail that Gustav has shown is incorrect.

Let me be clear:- I am not suggesting that Gustav is incorrect, he is only reporting that which somebody else has provided an opinion for.

That which I have attempted to do here is to demonstrate the need for extreme care whenever we attempt to identify origin of a keris blade, be that a geographic origin, an origin in point of time, or an attribution to a particular maker. We need to pay very, very close attention to minute detail.

Certainly, some blades are easier than others to put into a particular classification in geographic terms, but as we move up the register of quality and attempt to place a precise location, time, or maker onto a blade extremely comprehensive knowledge is required, as well as very great attention to detail.

kai · 9th December 2018, 09:32 AM

Hello Alan,

Could you possibly show a pic of a ron dha that corresponds to any reasonably well established signature (i. e. drawing in HH or similar)? Probably not the Jayasukadgo blade you're taking care of but rather some other piece assuming that posting a limited close-up won't really breach etiquette/adat?

BTW, are there any other reasonably reliable/authorative drawings of "signatures" from other empu? I can't remember having seen any of the earlier famous ones...

Thanks a lot for your consideration!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2018, 10:31 AM

Not possible Kai.

This sort of thing is not for public display, when you start to think of genuinely agreed master pieces you are thinking of a very elitist level. To see keris or other tosanaji that is genuinely agreed to be the work of the great masters you need to earn the privilege, it is not simply given to anybody.

I do not know of any reliable source of illustrations or photographs of any ron dha that have been generally agreed to be the work of any of the great masters. I do not even know if Haryoguritno's illustrations are reasonably correct, what I do know is that he had the connections and he spent years of effort on putting his work together. I personally believe that his illustrations would be generally agreed to be correct by those in a position to form an opinion.

I did not draw the comparison between Gustav's Jayasukadgo ron dha to begin any sort of information session on how to identify the work of the various great masters. This is a level that is beyond me.

I drew the comparison to attempt to illustrate just how meticulous we need to be in examination of the indicators that we use to classify a keris, and to attempt to show how very silly it is to play the Tangguh Game with run-of-the-mill Javanese keris.

I have tried to plant a seed that might cause the more perceptive amongst us to engage in some some serious thought.

The Jayasukadgo that I have in my care has no ron dha, it is a wulung tilam upih.

8th December 2018, 11:48 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	My reply is: no, they are not identical, see pics. Attached Images

8th December 2018, 11:50 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	pic added Often fotos are not taken at the right angle (exactly vertically from the main features) - this one seems to be fairly ok though. Regards, Kai Attached Images

8th December 2018, 06:51 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yeah, that's easier to compare, I should have done that myself, didn't think of it. Thanks Kai. Yes, a blade can become worn over time, however, the wear on a Jayasukadgo is going to be minimal, if there is any at all. With a Jayasukadgo we are are considering a blade that has been made in modern times, more or less 100 years old. It was a very expensive blade to begin with, and it is reasonable to assume that it has only ever been used as a dress accessory, never as a weapon, and never subjected to rough treatment. Given that the Haryoguritno drawings show the perfect signature, it seems to me that the extremely wide variation between Haryoguritno's ron dha, and the ron dha on Gustav's keris suggests that either Haryoguritno's representation is incorrect, or the attribution of Jayasukadgo to the detail that Gustav has shown is incorrect. Let me be clear:- I am not suggesting that Gustav is incorrect, he is only reporting that which somebody else has provided an opinion for. That which I have attempted to do here is to demonstrate the need for extreme care whenever we attempt to identify origin of a keris blade, be that a geographic origin, an origin in point of time, or an attribution to a particular maker. We need to pay very, very close attention to minute detail. Certainly, some blades are easier than others to put into a particular classification in geographic terms, but as we move up the register of quality and attempt to place a precise location, time, or maker onto a blade extremely comprehensive knowledge is required, as well as very great attention to detail. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 8th December 2018 at 07:27 PM.

8th December 2018, 08:37 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I have a preliminary opinion but it would be easier to assess if Gustav could post a pic of the greneng on the ganja tail & wadidang

8th December 2018, 08:56 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, the ron dha on the jenggot should not vary from the ron dha on the gonjo or wadidang. The ron dha we can see is the ron dha of the maker. Is this ron dha identical to the ron dha shown by Haryoguritno? I'm not asking if the keris is truly by Jayasukadgo, it is not possible to do that, I am only asking if Haryoguritno's Jayasukadgo ron dha is the same as Gustav's Jayasukadgo ron dha.

9th December 2018, 09:32 AM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, Could you possibly show a pic of a ron dha that corresponds to any reasonably well established signature (i. e. drawing in HH or similar)? Probably not the Jayasukadgo blade you're taking care of but rather some other piece assuming that posting a limited close-up won't really breach etiquette/adat? BTW, are there any other reasonably reliable/authorative drawings of "signatures" from other empu? I can't remember having seen any of the earlier famous ones... Thanks a lot for your consideration! Regards, Kai

9th December 2018, 10:31 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Not possible Kai. This sort of thing is not for public display, when you start to think of genuinely agreed master pieces you are thinking of a very elitist level. To see keris or other tosanaji that is genuinely agreed to be the work of the great masters you need to earn the privilege, it is not simply given to anybody. I do not know of any reliable source of illustrations or photographs of any ron dha that have been generally agreed to be the work of any of the great masters. I do not even know if Haryoguritno's illustrations are reasonably correct, what I do know is that he had the connections and he spent years of effort on putting his work together. I personally believe that his illustrations would be generally agreed to be correct by those in a position to form an opinion. I did not draw the comparison between Gustav's Jayasukadgo ron dha to begin any sort of information session on how to identify the work of the various great masters. This is a level that is beyond me. I drew the comparison to attempt to illustrate just how meticulous we need to be in examination of the indicators that we use to classify a keris, and to attempt to show how very silly it is to play the Tangguh Game with run-of-the-mill Javanese keris. I have tried to plant a seed that might cause the more perceptive amongst us to engage in some some serious thought. The Jayasukadgo that I have in my care has no ron dha, it is a wulung tilam upih.