South Arabian spears

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wonderfully authoritative and informative insight, especially in the perspective that there is more consistency in forms of spears and lances throughout the Arab world. I have always regarded that definition as far broader in definition than Arabia alone, as the Arabs of course populated many other places significantly.

With the terms noted Rumh, Shalfa and Gena, it seems these are indeed proper terms used, however, though I am no linguist, there does not seem to be any documented or reliable etymological explanation for loan words used locally, or in various contexts.

For example, Elgood notes terms used to describe various swords (by blades it seems typically) as the term 'shintayan' MAY refer to St. Etienne(France); or the term 'majar' MAY refer to 'Hungarian' (blades often seen on swords in Arabia), while 'al Hindi' of course refers to Indian.

Is it not possible that colloquially, in this manner of loan words describing certain character of a weapon or even origin of a term might extend in the same manner to 'rumh' as rumi' . Often such uses are nearly impossible to detect etymologically, as has often been seen in countless examples.


With the extension of the term for spear/lance colloquially, in military contexts, as I know Ibrahiim is deeply familiar, terms are often used toward weapons in slang or vernular use which are obviously not the proper one for the weapon. A heavy machine gun is often termed a 'saw', while obviously not the cutting tool..and so on . As the Rumh was a traditional weapon used by tribesmen, why would such troops not use a traditional term colloquially referring to their rifles?

Clearly these kinds of uses are not known to many, nor commonly, outside such military circles, and are not documented accordingly.


It is interesting to see perspective from clearly different sides, and to be able to learn more from them. I am under the impression that Bedouin tribes vary dramatically throughout the regions they occupy, and am curious about not only the terms they would use for these type weapons, which also vary in use and form as well.

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Edition:

As some may know, Arabic words tend to have an origin word. The word Rumh رمح happens to be one. From this origin word comes many other words including verbs and nouns. that can be easily looked up in any Arabic dictionary. The absurdity of claiming an original Arabic word for the most basic and oldest of weapons in human history to be an abbreviation of Rum is absurd. It also sends forth all forms of misinformation, did the Arabs discover the spear through the Romans? let this sink in for a little bit.

Also, another missed bit of misinformation is claiming Rum refers to Rome. Anyone with a basic read through Islamic history and Arab terminology knows that when Rum is mentioned geographically it refers to the land now known as Turkey. And as people, it refers to the Eastern Roman Empire.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.


With that it would be great to get back to the discussion on spears, and can you say more on the word Rumh? You use the term 'codified', does that mean obliquely, etymologically explained? Can Arabic words be identified in accord with etymological explanation in the manner of English etc. ? or are the identifications broader? There are some interesting explanations in discussion of weapons in "Armies of the Caliphs" by Hugh Kennedy.

If you know this reference, your take please.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.

[kahnjar1]

While I do not wish to become involved in the origins of words, I do sincerely hope that this does not lead to this thread being locked, as the discussion about Spears and Lances was developing nicely.............
Stu

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.

Jim, I find it odd that you find my comment on lack of knowledge to be offensive. My question to you, do you have the knowledge to read an Arabic word without a transliteration? Or the ability examine a basic Arab dictionary, which happens to be the requirement to understanding the absurdity of claiming Rumh is taken from the word Rum?

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/معنى-كلمة-رمح/

Are you capable of understanding the text here, if so, by all means prove it beyond the use of English transliteration which carry no weight at all.

Also, Ibrahim alBalushi of alBuraimi is an existing person, who i doubt knows of how his identity is used. This is not your random nickname.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim, I find it odd that you find my comment on lack of knowledge to be offensive. My question to you, do you have the knowledge to read an Arabic word without a transliteration? Or the ability examine a basic Arab dictionary, which happens to be the requirement to understanding the absurdity of claiming Rumh is taken from the word Rum?

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/معنى-كلمة-رمح/

Are you capable of understanding the text here, if so, by all means prove it beyond the use of English transliteration which carry no weight at all.

Also, Ibrahim alBalushi of alBuraimi is an existing person, who i doubt knows of how his identity is used. This is not your random nickname.

Lofty, I appreciate your explanation, and it is true, I do not speak nor read Arabic (I wish I did as I admire the knowledge it contains).....however your choice if words were what I referred to. I admit I rely on others who are well versed in Arabic or sources I consider reliable. ....but I hardly consider that renders my access to research sources or my knowledge insufficient. Your point is well taken, I cannot make the judgement myself, which was why my comments were offered only as suggestions....not assertions.


As Teodor has expressed, your knowledge in Arabian arms has been often constructive in threads and discussions, however I think it is important to recognize that others 'in the field' have opinions and observations which should be equally considered. They are not intended as 'misinformation' and to rebut or correct information should be rendered courteously, much as others respond to your entries.


It is a great thread, and I hope to learn more on these weapons. I admit I do rely a great deal on Wikipedia to provide overview for further research. Also on various online sources, it is noted that the term RUM refers in instances to Turkish citizens of Greek ethnicity, and RAMAH refers to a shaft, spear, pike or javelin.

Interestingly the term HARBA refers to a bayonet or spear.


I will pose this as a question NOT a comment so as not to appear absurd.


Is it possible that a rifle, with bayonet mounted, thus becoming a stabbing implement.....a spear or lance....might be construed by that term loosely in a military parlance?



Are there notable differences in local dialects, particularly Bedouin , as far as Arabic; in Omani or other regional cases? I know that Lofty is well versed in these matters and the differences between these tribes is intriguing.

[Ian]

Gentlemen:

This thread is being watched closely. The tone of some comments has been testy and personal. The efforts of other members to calm the waters is much appreciated and I would urge those addressed to heed their comments. This is an interesting thread and it would be a shame to shut it down. If it becomes necessary to close this thread there will be suspensions for those responsible.

Ian