Comment?

Jean · 25th November 2018, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, what you are talking about here is the difference between eras, the effect of time, and differences in post production processing. It is simply a matter of preferences.

In very simple terms, we cannot have a blade that was made only 30 or 40 years ago, or even within the last 100 years or so, that looks like a blade that was made 150 to 200 years ago. It was be very nice if we could get newly made blades that looked like 19th century Surakarta or late Mataram, but regrettably we cannot. .

Hello Alan,
I agree with you, however it seems to me that there are some apparently recent blades without this deep etching process.
The first blade which I am showing is Balinese (or in balinese style) and probably recent, and it shows a full and fine pamor pattern Beras Wutah.
The second blade is estimated to originate from Banten or Blambangan and to date from 17th century and it shows a very fine and intact pamor pattern after warangan as if it was newly made (bottom pic).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2018, 10:05 PM

Yes Jean, true, some current era blades are not deeply etched, in fact, some are not etched at all, but local buyers still seem to prefer that deep aggressive etch.

Your couple of examples demonstrate pretty well what I was talking about in my previous post:- old blades and new blades can look very close to the same when presented in similar condition and mixed together.

Gustav · 30th November 2018, 11:35 AM

Actually Blumbangan of initial Keris doesn't look Mboto Adeg (as it should be with Surakarta Keris), it could be square, in pictures it looks almost Rubuh, perhaps also some strange image deformation (the pictures look really distorted).

Kembang Kacang looks like Madura.

Poyuhan is disturbed.

As the name Jayasukadgo was mentioned (of course, having nothing to do with the initial Keris), attached a picture of a part of Keris which has been attributed to Jayasukadgo.

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2018, 12:40 PM

You are correct Gustav, the blumbangan of the current era nginden keris does not appear to be textbook Surakarta, however the only keris that do stay more or less strictly within the parameters of tangguh indicators are those that have been made by a karaton empu for use within a karaton, with all other keris there can be greater or lesser degrees of deviation from the guidelines that provide our indicators. When this deviation is present it becomes a matter of forming an opinion based upon the weight of evidence. "Tangguh" means "opinion".

There is another thing that also needs to be understood in assessing the form of a blumbangan, it is sometimes not really possible to assess form from a photograph, the internal barrier of the blumbangan can vary, depending upon how the palemahan and the bungkul have been carved, so a blumbangan that appears to be one form in a photo, can be different in the hand.

In the case of the keris under discussion the weight of evidence points firmly at Surakarta. Bear in mind, this is a current era keris. In other words it was made by somebody who is still living or has only recently passed away. We know where keris of this type were produced. We know the people who were capable of producing a keris like this. In the applicable period, those who were capable of producing this keris lived in Surakarta. Nowhere else. Just Solo.

Then we have the ron dha. In a young keris this form of ron dha is uniquely Surakarta. Couple the ron dha with the pawakan and you have an inarguable attribution of Surakarta, even without any other indicators being in compliance.

The agreed characteristic of a Madura kembang kacang is that it is whispy, one of the characteristics of a Surakarta kembang kacang is that it is substantial and heavy through its base. The KK on this keris is not at all typical of a Madura KK.

In respect of the work of Jayasukadgo. He was renowned for being able to do anything with pamor, however, he did not only produce keris that bore pamor, for those who could not afford his highest quality work he produced keris with no pamor, and with deviant features.

For the last 40 years I have been the custodian of one of these Jayasukadgo keris that has no pamor and possesses deviant characteristics. I do not own this keris, it is a pusaka keris, the previous family custodians are known, the maker is known. I have been entrusted with the care of this keris until the person who should have it is ready to accept it. Regrettably, although this person is already 50 years old he is still not ready to accept responsibility for his family's keris.

This keris is very definitely a Jayasukadgo, the family knows who made it, it has been recognised as Jayasukadgo by Javanese people who are sufficiently well educated to reliably recognise his work. But although it is a Jayasukadgo, and although it is recognisably Surakarta, it has some characteristics that are not typically Surakarta.

We really do need a very great depth of hands on experience to be able to apply the indicators that we use in classifying a keris.

David · 9th December 2018, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For the last 40 years I have been the custodian of one of these Jayasukadgo keris that has no pamor and possesses deviant characteristics. I do not own this keris, it is a pusaka keris, the previous family custodians are known, the maker is known. I have been entrusted with the care of this keris until the person who should have it is ready to accept it. Regrettably, although this person is already 50 years old he is still not ready to accept responsibility for his family's keris.

Hi Alan. Without getting too deep into this particular situation could you speak more generally on what is usually expected or required of one before they might actually be ready to accept such responsibility for such a keris pusaka?

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2018, 06:11 PM

It is difficult for me to speak in general terms David, because that would require knowledge of a number of situations where I knew of a similar situation to my own, and I do not know of any other similar situations to my own.

So, I cannot speak in general terms, only specific terms. In my case I was given this responsibility because of personal relationships, trust, and the people involved did not know of anybody else who had my understanding of keris and the associated traditions.

The family involved is not a noble family, but it was a powerful family prior to Independence.

Gustav · 16th December 2018, 10:27 AM

This is a very interesting topic, I have thought about it for a longer time.

At first, about the drawings from Haryoguritno's book - they seem to make the differences between Greneng by different Empu so clear - but he himself seems to have said, to be unable to distinguish the work of one empu from another. So even these quite analytical dravings are merely attributions?

The second point - the only Empu whose output has been photographically recorded and is attributable with some bigger certainty is Karyo di Kromo. If we look at the pictures in Groneman's articles, his Greneng is of course always similar, but there are noticeable differences between Greneng on different blades. Why? There are at least two possible explanations.

As we all know, photographing Keris (and particularly Greneng) is not easy at all. The slightest angle makes it appear different.

And of course, compared to Jayasukadgo, Karyo di Kromo was a lesser Empu.

Or perhaps is there a possibility that the Greneng wasn't 100% identical on all blades made by an Empu during the span of his lifetime?

Attached a picture of Greneng of the same blade I posted earlier. There is a residue of oil/dirt in the Dha of Ron Dha nunut, so it appears to be smaller in picture.

Then there is another discrepancy to the rules - the elements of Greneng nevertheless appear to become bigger towards Kanyut Buntu.

And also a picture of Tombak attributed to Jayasukadgo, posted by Alan a while ago.

Jean · 30th November 2018, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

As the name Jayasukadgo was mentioned (of course, having nothing to do with the initial Keris), attached a picture of a part of Keris which has been attributed to Jayasukadgo.

The pamor pattern of this kris looks very similar to te one belonging to Bill?

Regards

Gustav · 30th November 2018, 02:52 PM

Yes Jean, emerging of certain patterns in certain places is a regularity.

Otherwise there are worlds between these two blades.

David · 30th November 2018, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The pamor pattern of this kris looks very similar to te one belonging to Bill?

Regards

Jean, i believe you are confused because Gustav actually posted TWO keris as a comparative. The first one IS Bill's keris. The second one is a tighter shot on the one he attributes to Jayasukadgo.

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2018, 08:35 PM

I completely agree with you Gustav, the difference between Bill's keris and a Jayasukadgo is comparable to the difference between a Volkswagon Passat and a Mercedes-Benz Maybach Exelero --- and so is the market price.

Jean · 30th November 2018, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Jean, i believe you are confused because Gustav actually posted TWO keris as a comparative. The first one IS Bill's keris. The second one is a tighter shot on the one he attributes to Jayasukadgo.

Thank you David, you are correct and sorry for the confusion. It would be nice if Gustav could show us a full pic of the Maybach Exelero

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2018, 09:17 PM

Jean, possibly Gustav is under some restriction on publication. I have photos, in fact many photos, of keris that when I obtained those photos I was placed under a vow that I would never permit anybody else to look at them, and I, myself, could only look at them on a moonless night with the lights out.

Not everybody appreciates having the world look at the things for which they have responsibility.

30th November 2018, 11:35 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Actually Blumbangan of initial Keris doesn't look Mboto Adeg (as it should be with Surakarta Keris), it could be square, in pictures it looks almost Rubuh, perhaps also some strange image deformation (the pictures look really distorted). Kembang Kacang looks like Madura. Poyuhan is disturbed. As the name Jayasukadgo was mentioned (of course, having nothing to do with the initial Keris), attached a picture of a part of Keris which has been attributed to Jayasukadgo. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 30th November 2018 at 11:55 AM.

30th November 2018, 12:40 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	You are correct Gustav, the blumbangan of the current era nginden keris does not appear to be textbook Surakarta, however the only keris that do stay more or less strictly within the parameters of tangguh indicators are those that have been made by a karaton empu for use within a karaton, with all other keris there can be greater or lesser degrees of deviation from the guidelines that provide our indicators. When this deviation is present it becomes a matter of forming an opinion based upon the weight of evidence. "Tangguh" means "opinion". There is another thing that also needs to be understood in assessing the form of a blumbangan, it is sometimes not really possible to assess form from a photograph, the internal barrier of the blumbangan can vary, depending upon how the palemahan and the bungkul have been carved, so a blumbangan that appears to be one form in a photo, can be different in the hand. In the case of the keris under discussion the weight of evidence points firmly at Surakarta. Bear in mind, this is a current era keris. In other words it was made by somebody who is still living or has only recently passed away. We know where keris of this type were produced. We know the people who were capable of producing a keris like this. In the applicable period, those who were capable of producing this keris lived in Surakarta. Nowhere else. Just Solo. Then we have the ron dha. In a young keris this form of ron dha is uniquely Surakarta. Couple the ron dha with the pawakan and you have an inarguable attribution of Surakarta, even without any other indicators being in compliance. The agreed characteristic of a Madura kembang kacang is that it is whispy, one of the characteristics of a Surakarta kembang kacang is that it is substantial and heavy through its base. The KK on this keris is not at all typical of a Madura KK. In respect of the work of Jayasukadgo. He was renowned for being able to do anything with pamor, however, he did not only produce keris that bore pamor, for those who could not afford his highest quality work he produced keris with no pamor, and with deviant features. For the last 40 years I have been the custodian of one of these Jayasukadgo keris that has no pamor and possesses deviant characteristics. I do not own this keris, it is a pusaka keris, the previous family custodians are known, the maker is known. I have been entrusted with the care of this keris until the person who should have it is ready to accept it. Regrettably, although this person is already 50 years old he is still not ready to accept responsibility for his family's keris. This keris is very definitely a Jayasukadgo, the family knows who made it, it has been recognised as Jayasukadgo by Javanese people who are sufficiently well educated to reliably recognise his work. But although it is a Jayasukadgo, and although it is recognisably Surakarta, it has some characteristics that are not typically Surakarta. We really do need a very great depth of hands on experience to be able to apply the indicators that we use in classifying a keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th November 2018 at 12:51 PM.

16th December 2018, 10:27 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	This is a very interesting topic, I have thought about it for a longer time. At first, about the drawings from Haryoguritno's book - they seem to make the differences between Greneng by different Empu so clear - but he himself seems to have said, to be unable to distinguish the work of one empu from another. So even these quite analytical dravings are merely attributions? The second point - the only Empu whose output has been photographically recorded and is attributable with some bigger certainty is Karyo di Kromo. If we look at the pictures in Groneman's articles, his Greneng is of course always similar, but there are noticeable differences between Greneng on different blades. Why? There are at least two possible explanations. As we all know, photographing Keris (and particularly Greneng) is not easy at all. The slightest angle makes it appear different. And of course, compared to Jayasukadgo, Karyo di Kromo was a lesser Empu. Or perhaps is there a possibility that the Greneng wasn't 100% identical on all blades made by an Empu during the span of his lifetime? Attached a picture of Greneng of the same blade I posted earlier. There is a residue of oil/dirt in the Dha of Ron Dha nunut, so it appears to be smaller in picture. Then there is another discrepancy to the rules - the elements of Greneng nevertheless appear to become bigger towards Kanyut Buntu. And also a picture of Tombak attributed to Jayasukadgo, posted by Alan a while ago. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 16th December 2018 at 11:32 AM.

25th November 2018, 10:05 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Jean, true, some current era blades are not deeply etched, in fact, some are not etched at all, but local buyers still seem to prefer that deep aggressive etch. Your couple of examples demonstrate pretty well what I was talking about in my previous post:- old blades and new blades can look very close to the same when presented in similar condition and mixed together.

9th December 2018, 06:11 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	It is difficult for me to speak in general terms David, because that would require knowledge of a number of situations where I knew of a similar situation to my own, and I do not know of any other similar situations to my own. So, I cannot speak in general terms, only specific terms. In my case I was given this responsibility because of personal relationships, trust, and the people involved did not know of anybody else who had my understanding of keris and the associated traditions. The family involved is not a noble family, but it was a powerful family prior to Independence.

30th November 2018, 02:52 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Yes Jean, emerging of certain patterns in certain places is a regularity. Otherwise there are worlds between these two blades.

30th November 2018, 08:35 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I completely agree with you Gustav, the difference between Bill's keris and a Jayasukadgo is comparable to the difference between a Volkswagon Passat and a Mercedes-Benz Maybach Exelero --- and so is the market price.

30th November 2018, 09:17 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, possibly Gustav is under some restriction on publication. I have photos, in fact many photos, of keris that when I obtained those photos I was placed under a vow that I would never permit anybody else to look at them, and I, myself, could only look at them on a moonless night with the lights out. Not everybody appreciates having the world look at the things for which they have responsibility.