warangka for identification

Gustav · 12th November 2018, 11:43 PM

In the blade there are also equally strong indicators that suggest Palembang.

Gambar is a Palembang form, Gandar with squarish tip is typical for South Sumatra/Palembang.

Strong Chinese community with influence on art also in Palembang, see lacquer work, furniture, but the cloud motif, as suggested, points to North coast Java (Cirebon).
The carvings on hilt and Gambar obviously correspond. There could be a possibility this being an original ensemble.

A. G. Maisey · 13th November 2018, 08:20 AM

Thanks for putting that pic up Gustav, yes, looking at that wrongko I'm seeing details that I have not previously seen on a South Sumatera keris. I think in light of that example I'd be quite happy to add South Sumatera to the guess basket.

However, as far as the blade goes, it is pretty much as I have already said, there are elements that suggest north coast Jawa, in fact, there can be no elements in the blade that suggest South Sumatera or Palembang, because there is no blade style that is unique to Palembang or South Sumatera. In Palembang, locally made blades copy blades from other areas, so we cannot really know if it originated in Palembang or if it came from somewhere else. In other words, tangguh Palembang does not exist --- even though some Jakarta dealers would like it to.

Regarding the motif, whilst it is true that the cloud motif originated in Cirebon actually dating from when Sunan Gunung Jati married Ratu Ong Tien (who was Chinese), the motif can be found in a number of other places too, and especially along the North Coast, in batik and in wood carving it varies a little bit wherever it is found, a batik expert can tell the differences, I cannot, but I do understand just a little bit about these motifs, and to my eye, the way in which this particular hilt motif is carved looks more like Pekalongan than Cirebon style. But I'm no expert, so I'm happy to settle for "North Coast".

Thanks again for the pic, where is it from?

EDIT

I'm going to float another guess now, again I emphasise, a guess, not an opinion.

If we look at this entire ensemble, there is one thing about it that really screams, its not nice, and that is the proportion of hilt to wrongko, its gawky, unbalanced, the hilt sits much too high, like an after thought, just plain horrible.

Maybe what we have is a keris along with hilt and wrongko that went from North Coast Jawa to South Sumatera, the wrongko was unsuitable for Palembang --- or wherever wear, so a new one was made, and the present selut was fitted to the hilt. This present selut is certainly identifiable as Palembang or South Sumatera.

My feeling remains Chinese involvement, and knowing the way Chinese businessmen moved (and move) around, that seems reasonable to me.

Gustav · 18th December 2018, 02:34 PM

A couple of pictures of this interesting ensemble will follow.

What led me thing about Palembang as possible origin of blade was the smallish Greneng with elongated Dha, sometimes found in S-Sumatra, the cutting edge stopping just before the first Greneng element (indicated by arrow), together with Odo-Odo running almost till the tip.

New updates for me:

- the blade is unexpectedly large - 45,5 cm, and could be older then I expected it to be. Gonjo is 10 cm long and 1,6 cm wide at Sirah Cecak.

- cutting edge stopping just before Greneng can be found also in West Java.

- there were two inserts at the mouth of Wrongko, one of which is lost. Nevertheless the Wrongko seems to be originally made for the blade. The Gandar isn't split and there is no hole at the bottom of it.

The hilt is a riddle for me, never have seen something similar on Keris, yet there are similarities in ornamentation with older Javanese Pedang hilts.

David · 18th December 2018, 06:27 PM

Thanks for the update Gustav. I'm i to understand that this keris is now yours?
I look forward to your further thoughts on this. As with you i also see a strong possibility for a Sumatran blade for the very same indicators that you point out and the very similar greneng to the blade that i posted earlier. Mine is also fairly long at 41.275cm (16.25 inches).

Jean · 18th December 2018, 08:10 PM

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.
Regards

David · 18th December 2018, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.
Regards

Well then, what do you think of my blade then? Over 41cm long, same greneng and tikel alis treatment. It has been dressed in what i have presumed was Sumatran dress for a very long time in a sheath that was most obviously made for the blade. I do know that some North Jawa figural hilts are sometimes confused with North Jawa, but the carving style on this looks more Sumatran to my eye and the selut as well. The shape of the sheath has alway seemed in a Sumatran style as well, but maybe if we can attach this form to North Jawa it might explain all the confusion over the original sheath presented here as well as my own. However, another of far greater knowledge than i also IDed this one as "typical Palembang" some years ago.
Please forgive this really bad cellphone photo taken in poor light, but when i looked it seems that i had neglected to take any over all photos of the dress on this keris.

Gustav · 18th December 2018, 09:36 PM

David, at the moment it's in my hands.

Jean, as David already wrote, such Tikel Alis and similar elongated Greneng can be seen on S-Sumatra blades. S-Sumatra blades tend to be smaller, but I know of some quite large specimens.

What is absolutely out of norm for S-Sumatra on the initial blade is the Mboto Rubuh Blumbangan.

As you can see, the edges ant the tip of the blade have been cleaned and treated with warangan. This must have happened already a while ago.

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2018, 09:48 PM

David, what you have shown in this image I would call "typically Palembang" I wouldn't even think twice, or go looking for other possibilities, to me, this is Palembang.

However, when we begin to talk about blades, I need to think more than twice.

What I know is this:-

1) Palembang made keris blades vary across a wide range of styles; there is no uniquely Palembang style of blade.

2) Many Palembang keris used and use blades that originated in other localities.

3) Palembang was/is all about trade, people from all over the region moved and move in and out all the time

4) Javanese style blades that are larger than the Javanese blades that are customary in Central Jawa and East Jawa can usually be associated with North Coast and West Jawa, or with Lombok.

5) A gentle curve in the face of a gandhik is usually associated with West Jawa

6) A "brick laying down " (boto rubuh, elongated horizontally) blumbangan is associated with West Jawa and in a lesser degree, North Coast Jawa

7) The top of a gonjo needs to be able to conform to the type of dress that is common in the location where the keris was made, or where the gonjo was replaced

8) Overall blade style tends to be more or less related in any geographic location

9) Style and execution of detail in a blade can and does vary according to individual makers, variation is greatest at lower levels of quality.

The above are things I know to be true. I'm not guessing, I'm not floating possibilities. These things are things that I have been taught to be matters of fact, and that my own experience has verified.

If I use the above as a foundation for any opinion I may form, I am left with several possibilities and it becomes very difficult to use any one of those possibilities as a definite, supportable opinion based upon a photograph.

kai · 19th December 2018, 01:20 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

However, another of far greater knowledge than i also IDed this one as "typical Palembang" some years ago.

The dress of your Keris certainly is Palembang/Lampung. However, the dress seems fairly recent to me, probably quite a bit younger than the blade. Thus, we probably have to focus on the blade only; considering the differences with Gustav's blade though, I kinda doubt that it will bear much on placing the latter.

Anyway, it is certainly interesting to drive home the notion that a really wide variety of blades can be found in South Sumatran dress. Aside from the obviously strong influence of Mataram style on many blades, one also might expect quite a bit of carry-over from western Java (or Sunda-influenced regions in general).

Regards,
Kai

David · 19th December 2018, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.

Sorry Jean, you said Sumatran keris generally don't exceed 37 CM.
A slip of the keys for someone raised with inches. I did indeed mean centimeters and will correct the post in question.

But MAN, now that i'm living in Canada i will need to be more careful with my metric system! LOL!

And thank you for further confirmation.

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2018, 09:06 PM

When we set out to classify a keris blade in terms of its point of origin in either time, or as a geographic location we are getting involved in playing the Tangguh Game. By its very nature, tangguh is opinion, and an opinion in respect of anything at all is formed on the basis of both personal knowledge, gained through experience, and/or generally accepted beliefs which may or may not be fact.

I first heard of tangguh in the 1970's, and in 1974 I had my first lesson in tangguh from a gentleman who was introduced to me as Romo Murdo, he was identified as the person responsible for the maintenance of the tosan aji kept in the Jogjakarta Kraton. I had more lessons from a neighbour of Romo Murdo's whose name was Asikin.

It was 1982 before I received any more solid, dedicated instruction in how to understand tangguh, and that instruction came from Empu Suparman, who continued to teach me until his passing in 1995.

In addition to that which I learnt from these gentlemen I also learnt much about tangguh from Pande Seni Keris Mpu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, who was a good friend from 1974.

My knowledge of tangguh and its application was added to by continuing contact with many other Javanese people who were, and still are, involved with the World of the Keris.

Over time I have formed the opinion that classification of a keris blade in accordance with the parameters of tangguh is totally Jawacentric. It arose because of a social need, and anything that did not contribute to that social need was of no interest to the people who used the tangguh parameters to classify a keris. Thus, keris from places other than Jawa were consistently dismissed as being of little interest or value.

However, in spite of this lack of interest in Jawa for keris that were regarded as "not really keris", tangguh does allow for classification of some keris blades based upon broad geographic area, thus we can classify Bugis, or keris from the Eastern Islands, or keris from the Peninsula. But when it comes to keris from Sumatera, it is as if that island in its entirety is a black hole.

I have never met any person who is regarded as an expert in the culture of the keris who was prepared to designate any particular keris style as being unique to any particular part of Sumatera.

Admittedly, this has changed a little in recent years, and I have been told, but have not personally experienced, that some high level dealers and their accomplices in Jakarta and Surabaya have now established indicators for Tangguh Palembang. I rather suspect that this new knowledge could be commercially driven --- but then, I do admit to being a sceptic.

Palembang has had a continuing political association with other places in S.E.Asia, especially with Central Jawa. This association with Central Jawa dates back to the Pajang era in Jawa when the Palembang Sultanate was controlled by Pajang. In the first quarter of the 19th century the Palembang Sultanate was wiped out by the Dutch, and they established direct rule, so from around 1820 or so there has been no royal guiding influence in Palembang. This lack of an overall societal and cultural guide has resulted in Palembang becoming a trade orientated centre, rather than a culturally orientated centre.

In the way in which the keris is understood in Jawa, this makes the keris from Palembang below consideration as a cultural icon. It is not, and has not been for a very long time something that possesses a similar nature or value to the Javanese keris. The keris from Palembang have no distinctive style that can be identified as being uniquely associated with Palembang.

This is certainly a Javanese attitude, and it may well be at variance with the attitude of the people of Palembang, but the fact remains that the variation in keris blades that can be found in Palembang dress does verify that there is very little consistency in what can be regarded as a keris that has a high probability of having been made in the area of influence of Palembang.

Consider the most famous of all Palembang keris, Si Ginjei, this keris is attributed to Empu Kinom of Mataram. There was some discussion of this keris in this Forum a few years back.

What I was taught, and what my own experience has verified, is that the lack of consistency in keris which supposedly originate from Sumatera, and especially from Palembang, makes it impossible to support a tangguh classification of Palembang, or of any other place in Sumatera, based upon indicators that have more or less definite parameters.

Palembang keris dress we can identify with a high probability of accuracy.

Palembang - made keris blades are not subject to probability, but only to possibility.

12th November 2018, 11:43 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	In the blade there are also equally strong indicators that suggest Palembang. Gambar is a Palembang form, Gandar with squarish tip is typical for South Sumatra/Palembang. Strong Chinese community with influence on art also in Palembang, see lacquer work, furniture, but the cloud motif, as suggested, points to North coast Java (Cirebon). The carvings on hilt and Gambar obviously correspond. There could be a possibility this being an original ensemble. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 13th November 2018 at 12:20 AM.

13th November 2018, 08:20 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Thanks for putting that pic up Gustav, yes, looking at that wrongko I'm seeing details that I have not previously seen on a South Sumatera keris. I think in light of that example I'd be quite happy to add South Sumatera to the guess basket. However, as far as the blade goes, it is pretty much as I have already said, there are elements that suggest north coast Jawa, in fact, there can be no elements in the blade that suggest South Sumatera or Palembang, because there is no blade style that is unique to Palembang or South Sumatera. In Palembang, locally made blades copy blades from other areas, so we cannot really know if it originated in Palembang or if it came from somewhere else. In other words, tangguh Palembang does not exist --- even though some Jakarta dealers would like it to. Regarding the motif, whilst it is true that the cloud motif originated in Cirebon actually dating from when Sunan Gunung Jati married Ratu Ong Tien (who was Chinese), the motif can be found in a number of other places too, and especially along the North Coast, in batik and in wood carving it varies a little bit wherever it is found, a batik expert can tell the differences, I cannot, but I do understand just a little bit about these motifs, and to my eye, the way in which this particular hilt motif is carved looks more like Pekalongan than Cirebon style. But I'm no expert, so I'm happy to settle for "North Coast". Thanks again for the pic, where is it from? EDIT I'm going to float another guess now, again I emphasise, a guess, not an opinion. If we look at this entire ensemble, there is one thing about it that really screams, its not nice, and that is the proportion of hilt to wrongko, its gawky, unbalanced, the hilt sits much too high, like an after thought, just plain horrible. Maybe what we have is a keris along with hilt and wrongko that went from North Coast Jawa to South Sumatera, the wrongko was unsuitable for Palembang --- or wherever wear, so a new one was made, and the present selut was fitted to the hilt. This present selut is certainly identifiable as Palembang or South Sumatera. My feeling remains Chinese involvement, and knowing the way Chinese businessmen moved (and move) around, that seems reasonable to me. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 13th November 2018 at 08:53 AM.

18th December 2018, 09:36 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	David, at the moment it's in my hands. Jean, as David already wrote, such Tikel Alis and similar elongated Greneng can be seen on S-Sumatra blades. S-Sumatra blades tend to be smaller, but I know of some quite large specimens. What is absolutely out of norm for S-Sumatra on the initial blade is the Mboto Rubuh Blumbangan. As you can see, the edges ant the tip of the blade have been cleaned and treated with warangan. This must have happened already a while ago. Attached Images

18th December 2018, 02:34 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	A couple of pictures of this interesting ensemble will follow. What led me thing about Palembang as possible origin of blade was the smallish Greneng with elongated Dha, sometimes found in S-Sumatra, the cutting edge stopping just before the first Greneng element (indicated by arrow), together with Odo-Odo running almost till the tip. New updates for me: - the blade is unexpectedly large - 45,5 cm, and could be older then I expected it to be. Gonjo is 10 cm long and 1,6 cm wide at Sirah Cecak. - cutting edge stopping just before Greneng can be found also in West Java. - there were two inserts at the mouth of Wrongko, one of which is lost. Nevertheless the Wrongko seems to be originally made for the blade. The Gandar isn't split and there is no hole at the bottom of it. The hilt is a riddle for me, never have seen something similar on Keris, yet there are similarities in ornamentation with older Javanese Pedang hilts.

18th December 2018, 06:27 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks for the update Gustav. I'm i to understand that this keris is now yours? I look forward to your further thoughts on this. As with you i also see a strong possibility for a Sumatran blade for the very same indicators that you point out and the very similar greneng to the blade that i posted earlier. Mine is also fairly long at 41.275cm (16.25 inches).

18th December 2018, 08:10 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long. Regards

18th December 2018, 09:48 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	David, what you have shown in this image I would call "typically Palembang" I wouldn't even think twice, or go looking for other possibilities, to me, this is Palembang. However, when we begin to talk about blades, I need to think more than twice. What I know is this:- 1) Palembang made keris blades vary across a wide range of styles; there is no uniquely Palembang style of blade. 2) Many Palembang keris used and use blades that originated in other localities. 3) Palembang was/is all about trade, people from all over the region moved and move in and out all the time 4) Javanese style blades that are larger than the Javanese blades that are customary in Central Jawa and East Jawa can usually be associated with North Coast and West Jawa, or with Lombok. 5) A gentle curve in the face of a gandhik is usually associated with West Jawa 6) A "brick laying down " (boto rubuh, elongated horizontally) blumbangan is associated with West Jawa and in a lesser degree, North Coast Jawa 7) The top of a gonjo needs to be able to conform to the type of dress that is common in the location where the keris was made, or where the gonjo was replaced 8) Overall blade style tends to be more or less related in any geographic location 9) Style and execution of detail in a blade can and does vary according to individual makers, variation is greatest at lower levels of quality. The above are things I know to be true. I'm not guessing, I'm not floating possibilities. These things are things that I have been taught to be matters of fact, and that my own experience has verified. If I use the above as a foundation for any opinion I may form, I am left with several possibilities and it becomes very difficult to use any one of those possibilities as a definite, supportable opinion based upon a photograph.

19th December 2018, 09:06 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	When we set out to classify a keris blade in terms of its point of origin in either time, or as a geographic location we are getting involved in playing the Tangguh Game. By its very nature, tangguh is opinion, and an opinion in respect of anything at all is formed on the basis of both personal knowledge, gained through experience, and/or generally accepted beliefs which may or may not be fact. I first heard of tangguh in the 1970's, and in 1974 I had my first lesson in tangguh from a gentleman who was introduced to me as Romo Murdo, he was identified as the person responsible for the maintenance of the tosan aji kept in the Jogjakarta Kraton. I had more lessons from a neighbour of Romo Murdo's whose name was Asikin. It was 1982 before I received any more solid, dedicated instruction in how to understand tangguh, and that instruction came from Empu Suparman, who continued to teach me until his passing in 1995. In addition to that which I learnt from these gentlemen I also learnt much about tangguh from Pande Seni Keris Mpu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, who was a good friend from 1974. My knowledge of tangguh and its application was added to by continuing contact with many other Javanese people who were, and still are, involved with the World of the Keris. Over time I have formed the opinion that classification of a keris blade in accordance with the parameters of tangguh is totally Jawacentric. It arose because of a social need, and anything that did not contribute to that social need was of no interest to the people who used the tangguh parameters to classify a keris. Thus, keris from places other than Jawa were consistently dismissed as being of little interest or value. However, in spite of this lack of interest in Jawa for keris that were regarded as "not really keris", tangguh does allow for classification of some keris blades based upon broad geographic area, thus we can classify Bugis, or keris from the Eastern Islands, or keris from the Peninsula. But when it comes to keris from Sumatera, it is as if that island in its entirety is a black hole. I have never met any person who is regarded as an expert in the culture of the keris who was prepared to designate any particular keris style as being unique to any particular part of Sumatera. Admittedly, this has changed a little in recent years, and I have been told, but have not personally experienced, that some high level dealers and their accomplices in Jakarta and Surabaya have now established indicators for Tangguh Palembang. I rather suspect that this new knowledge could be commercially driven --- but then, I do admit to being a sceptic. Palembang has had a continuing political association with other places in S.E.Asia, especially with Central Jawa. This association with Central Jawa dates back to the Pajang era in Jawa when the Palembang Sultanate was controlled by Pajang. In the first quarter of the 19th century the Palembang Sultanate was wiped out by the Dutch, and they established direct rule, so from around 1820 or so there has been no royal guiding influence in Palembang. This lack of an overall societal and cultural guide has resulted in Palembang becoming a trade orientated centre, rather than a culturally orientated centre. In the way in which the keris is understood in Jawa, this makes the keris from Palembang below consideration as a cultural icon. It is not, and has not been for a very long time something that possesses a similar nature or value to the Javanese keris. The keris from Palembang have no distinctive style that can be identified as being uniquely associated with Palembang. This is certainly a Javanese attitude, and it may well be at variance with the attitude of the people of Palembang, but the fact remains that the variation in keris blades that can be found in Palembang dress does verify that there is very little consistency in what can be regarded as a keris that has a high probability of having been made in the area of influence of Palembang. Consider the most famous of all Palembang keris, Si Ginjei, this keris is attributed to Empu Kinom of Mataram. There was some discussion of this keris in this Forum a few years back. What I was taught, and what my own experience has verified, is that the lack of consistency in keris which supposedly originate from Sumatera, and especially from Palembang, makes it impossible to support a tangguh classification of Palembang, or of any other place in Sumatera, based upon indicators that have more or less definite parameters. Palembang keris dress we can identify with a high probability of accuracy. Palembang - made keris blades are not subject to probability, but only to possibility.