A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2018, 11:40 PM

If I am following the discussion correctly, the general talking point (no pun intended) was/is whether or not the katar (or other stabbing weapons) needed a reinforced point to effectively penetrate armor.....that is mail.

While the pragmatic digressions are interesting, as are the philosophical perspectives......I would say again, it seems that bolstering the point of an edged weapon would make sense if at any point (there I go again

...the weapon would be used in a thrust vs. armor or heavy clothing.

While the katar in most instances, especially early examples in the south (Vijayanagara etc, Maratha etc.) were used in slashing cuts....their use to the north began such bolstering as mail was often present in combat.

In studies on mail used in New Spain in colonial times from the conquistadors through 19th century, it seems that this defensive armor was in use even after it had become largely obsolete in Europe with the advent of firearms. However, lack of proper armorers to maintain and repair the old coats of mail led to its becoming unserviceable in time with corrosion and breakage.

The biggest problem was its lack of effectiveness again the deadly arrows of the American Indian tribes. The 'point' of the arrow would enter the ring of the link, and expand it and break in, especially with the force of the arrow vs. a compromised (rusty or broken) link. Further and worse, the debris was carried by the arrow into the wound, with obvious result.

These dynamics are what I was referring to earlier regarding how effective a katar would be vs. mail, and how the reinforced point would react in a thrust. However, if the mail was sturdy and sound, relatively new or well maintained, the result would not be favorable for the user of the katar.

In the more probable case, with heavy or padded clothing, a sharp reinforced point would certainly penetrate with effect. With these circumstances in mind, the reinforced point would not necessarily be intended against armor, but vs heavy clothing as well.

The use of mail prevailed in archaic situations into the 20th century (Khevsurs ) and through the 19th (in Egypt with the Khedive's 'iron men') and across the Sahara in Bornu and with many tribal groups. In most cases, it was readily discarded as the dramatically increased wounding from bullets were obvious incentive to do so.

Mercenary · 2nd November 2018, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the more probable case, with heavy or padded clothing, a sharp reinforced point would certainly penetrate with effect. With these circumstances in mind, the reinforced point would not necessarily be intended against armor, but vs heavy clothing as well.

In order to pierce a mail shirt or clothing, the dagger must be keeping in hand. The talwar is in one hand, the dagger is in the other hand. There is only one and very late similar image with a small degree of confidence.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 07:18 PM

I think that while philosophical debate is often in degree entertaining as it is largely often speculative in use of analogy and comparative circumstance, in the analysis of weaponry used in earlier times we must realize the boundaries that exist in reality.

Using artwork, or even photography (in the instances described here earlier) as supportive evidence is only effective in degree, and accordingly only provides a degree of plausibility.

For example, the famed painting of the charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo by Lady Butler in the 1880s ("Scotland Forever") is only mildly accurate. It shows the troopers charging at speed almost wildly, with Highland infantrymen clinging to the stirrups of the cavalrymen charging into the French.
The truth was that the Scots Greys were not charging in this manner, but were at the trot, moving through sodden, muddy earth and moving through retreating Highlanders on thoroughly blown horses. The Highlanders were not clinging to the stirrups, but trying to get out of the way. The Greys were never ordered to charge, only advance.....and the immortal outcome was from failure to regroup in the confusion and scattering of troopers as many of the officers had been killed. Most fatalities were from the deadly crossfire during the advance, then from French lancers picking off the scattered troopers one at a time.

There are many cases of art having the presumption of accuracy, but artists tend to embellish, especially when the actual work is often done years after the event .

As mentioned, photography, particularly early examples, was often staged and using props and even costumes. As with art, these were intended to elicit a certain theme or perspective. They cannot typically be viewed as completely accurate.....though in cases, plausible.

Obviously, before cameras, and absence of an artist on site.....the call for witnesses is another means for evidence. In dramatic and often traumatic events, people are not sitting there taking notes, they are trying to survive.
As any police investigator will tell you...various witnesses....equal possibility of variation on accounts.

Narratives and accounts are typically written or gathered after an event, often years, sometimes many, later. Memories become clouded, often tainted by other accounts that are shared later. Post recognition is in effect prompted by suggestion.

Obviously, this is a digression as we are discussing hypothetical situations, but since it that very tract, it seemed that this perspective might better define the ineffectuality of art, photos and 'witnesses' overall. Also, in considering these elements, there is no substitute for research, cross reference and corriborstion and as always, common sense in evaluation.

ariel · 2nd November 2018, 07:25 PM

Bladed weapons with reinforced points are seen in multiple cultures.
During their attack Circassians, it was said, "first stabbed and then slashed". Their sabers with bayonet points are well known . Some of these blades ( or perhaps even all of them) were made by Crimean Tatars ( see attached).
Lately, I went berserk for nomadic sabers. I just bought a Mongol-Tatar nomadic one 12-14 century, also attached. As I said, I have a tulwar with Zira-Bouk-ish point ( I am at work and will try to find time to photograph it)

The common denominator for all such blades is the intent of their owners to stab the opponent without a risk to bend the blade.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 07:44 PM

These Tatar sabres with their distinctive needle points( by the hilts termed 'ordynka' ) are fascinating, and I always marveled at how these ultra thin points could be used without snapping off. While in pitched or standing combat is one thing, but on horseback even in position the dynamic movements of the horse and the opponent would seem bad for a blade imbedded through mail.

With this type point, that brings me to the fabled 'flyssa' of the Kabyles in Algeria, and with the Ottoman presence there I always wondered if the Circassian elements among Ottoman forces brought such influence to the needle points on many flyssa.

While again digressing geographically it goes to the effect of armor piercing blades.

ariel · 2nd November 2018, 09:42 PM

Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas..

But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-)

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas..

But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-)

I guess the point was that influences in weapons diffuse and transcend all boundaries (much as digressions as seen here).....and I too recall the many discussions where it was largely agreed that the 'flyssa' probably evolved from early yataghan forms. The mention of the 'ordynka' term was referring to the needle point example pictured. ....simply a term noted in the Ostrowski article among others used in Polish parlance for this hilt form.

As you note, the 'newer' form which had the 'needle' point seems to have been from somewhat pre-1850s (the earliest example I found with provenance was a French Foreign Legion museum in France, 1857).

Thanks for the photo of this outstanding tulwar, with what you accurately note as Afghan or northwest India blade (the Persian influence). The bolstered point as seen on katars seems way incongruent with a slashing sabre. I honestly have not heard of warriors using tulwars 'giving point'...and a blade as wide as this would not split mail....but may penetrate heavy cloth. Ponderous example.

ariel · 2nd November 2018, 10:08 PM

If we went so far in our digressions, any documented evidence in favor ( or against) flissa being a stabbing weapon? Or slashing?
Maghribean cavalry ( just like Aravian) was riding camels and the very height of that obnoxious creature may explain the length of " newer" flissas. But I have a problem imagining flissas as slashers. May be totally wrong, though.

Rick · 3rd November 2018, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas..

But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-)

Here is another sword with reinforced point.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kirach

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2018, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here is another sword with reinforced point.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kirach

This 'reinforced' look at the point, now that I look at it more, is very much like British cavalry sabres of M1821 and later. The general idea of these was that they were functional for both cut and thrust, the ridge at the point extended as far as the hollowed out fuller of the blade all the way to the forte.

There were a lot of problems with these swords as they often bent and broke in these uses and a lot of 'retooling' was needed. The 1821s didnt get back into production until 1829 after several years hiatus.

Perhaps these Indian tulwar blades are taken after the British cavalry blades, as there were outfitters privately supplying units in India.

The ridged reinforcement feature at the tip seems to correspond to those on katars and the concept was intended for the thrust.

If I can recall correctly, in 1962 Gerhard Seifert ("Schert Degen Sabel") tried to classify some features of cavalry sabres, and this type was termed 'CENTER POINT' as opposed to the simple point 'spear point'.

Funkmachine7 · 27th November 2018, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The use of mail prevailed in archaic situations into the 20th century (Khevsurs ) and through the 19th (in Egypt with the Khedive's 'iron men') and across the Sahara in Bornu and with many tribal groups. In most cases, it was readily discarded as the dramatically increased wounding from bullets were obvious incentive to do so.

Here is if (i've got the uploading thing to work properly ) on the mail shirts made for Khedive's Zirkhagi, by the Wilkinson Sword Company in a around 1880.
You'll note that is made of split rings, a
The armour did against guns prove to be " proved worse than useless" with the brittle rings shattereing which caused appalling wounds.
(A similar problem to the mail veils on WW1 tankers anti-spall masks.)

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2018, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkmachine7

Here is if (i've got the uploading thing to work properly ) on the mail shirts made for Khedive's Zirkhagi, by the Wilkinson Sword Company in a around 1880.
You'll note that is made of split rings, a
The armour did against guns prove to be " proved worse than useless" with the brittle rings shattereing which caused appalling wounds.
(A similar problem to the mail veils on WW1 tankers anti-spall masks.)

Thank you so much for posting this!! It is rare to see an actual example of the British made mail made for the Khedive's 'iron men'. It seems that Arkell wrote a paper on mail making in the Sudan and they did learn how to produce their own in degree, but as noted, with firearms the wounding potential was enhanced by the mail itself shattering.

It would be interesting to start a new thread on this topic, as well as some of the unusual armor and helmets etc. used in the Sudan and Sahara.

One of the intriguing fascinations of the European forces and travelers who went to these North African regions was the anachronistic appearance of the 'natives' who seem to have existed right out of the crusades into then modern times. Actually it seems that the Mamluks had a great deal to do with the appearance of mail and broadswords in these regions, and while they were overtaken of course by Ottomans their descendants diffused and remained throughout areas in Sudan and elsewhere.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2018, 07:10 PM

I must say like B.I. did years ago - A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2018, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I must say like B.I. did years ago - A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Those were the good ole days!

2nd November 2018, 07:25 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Bladed weapons with reinforced points are seen in multiple cultures. During their attack Circassians, it was said, "first stabbed and then slashed". Their sabers with bayonet points are well known . Some of these blades ( or perhaps even all of them) were made by Crimean Tatars ( see attached). Lately, I went berserk for nomadic sabers. I just bought a Mongol-Tatar nomadic one 12-14 century, also attached. As I said, I have a tulwar with Zira-Bouk-ish point ( I am at work and will try to find time to photograph it) The common denominator for all such blades is the intent of their owners to stab the opponent without a risk to bend the blade. Attached Images

2nd November 2018, 09:42 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas.. But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-) Attached Images

1st November 2018, 11:40 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	If I am following the discussion correctly, the general talking point (no pun intended) was/is whether or not the katar (or other stabbing weapons) needed a reinforced point to effectively penetrate armor.....that is mail. While the pragmatic digressions are interesting, as are the philosophical perspectives......I would say again, it seems that bolstering the point of an edged weapon would make sense if at any point (there I go again ...the weapon would be used in a thrust vs. armor or heavy clothing. While the katar in most instances, especially early examples in the south (Vijayanagara etc, Maratha etc.) were used in slashing cuts....their use to the north began such bolstering as mail was often present in combat. In studies on mail used in New Spain in colonial times from the conquistadors through 19th century, it seems that this defensive armor was in use even after it had become largely obsolete in Europe with the advent of firearms. However, lack of proper armorers to maintain and repair the old coats of mail led to its becoming unserviceable in time with corrosion and breakage. The biggest problem was its lack of effectiveness again the deadly arrows of the American Indian tribes. The 'point' of the arrow would enter the ring of the link, and expand it and break in, especially with the force of the arrow vs. a compromised (rusty or broken) link. Further and worse, the debris was carried by the arrow into the wound, with obvious result. These dynamics are what I was referring to earlier regarding how effective a katar would be vs. mail, and how the reinforced point would react in a thrust. However, if the mail was sturdy and sound, relatively new or well maintained, the result would not be favorable for the user of the katar. In the more probable case, with heavy or padded clothing, a sharp reinforced point would certainly penetrate with effect. With these circumstances in mind, the reinforced point would not necessarily be intended against armor, but vs heavy clothing as well. The use of mail prevailed in archaic situations into the 20th century (Khevsurs ) and through the 19th (in Egypt with the Khedive's 'iron men') and across the Sahara in Bornu and with many tribal groups. In most cases, it was readily discarded as the dramatically increased wounding from bullets were obvious incentive to do so.

2nd November 2018, 07:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I think that while philosophical debate is often in degree entertaining as it is largely often speculative in use of analogy and comparative circumstance, in the analysis of weaponry used in earlier times we must realize the boundaries that exist in reality. Using artwork, or even photography (in the instances described here earlier) as supportive evidence is only effective in degree, and accordingly only provides a degree of plausibility. For example, the famed painting of the charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo by Lady Butler in the 1880s ("Scotland Forever") is only mildly accurate. It shows the troopers charging at speed almost wildly, with Highland infantrymen clinging to the stirrups of the cavalrymen charging into the French. The truth was that the Scots Greys were not charging in this manner, but were at the trot, moving through sodden, muddy earth and moving through retreating Highlanders on thoroughly blown horses. The Highlanders were not clinging to the stirrups, but trying to get out of the way. The Greys were never ordered to charge, only advance.....and the immortal outcome was from failure to regroup in the confusion and scattering of troopers as many of the officers had been killed. Most fatalities were from the deadly crossfire during the advance, then from French lancers picking off the scattered troopers one at a time. There are many cases of art having the presumption of accuracy, but artists tend to embellish, especially when the actual work is often done years after the event . As mentioned, photography, particularly early examples, was often staged and using props and even costumes. As with art, these were intended to elicit a certain theme or perspective. They cannot typically be viewed as completely accurate.....though in cases, plausible. Obviously, before cameras, and absence of an artist on site.....the call for witnesses is another means for evidence. In dramatic and often traumatic events, people are not sitting there taking notes, they are trying to survive. As any police investigator will tell you...various witnesses....equal possibility of variation on accounts. Narratives and accounts are typically written or gathered after an event, often years, sometimes many, later. Memories become clouded, often tainted by other accounts that are shared later. Post recognition is in effect prompted by suggestion. Obviously, this is a digression as we are discussing hypothetical situations, but since it that very tract, it seemed that this perspective might better define the ineffectuality of art, photos and 'witnesses' overall. Also, in considering these elements, there is no substitute for research, cross reference and corriborstion and as always, common sense in evaluation.

2nd November 2018, 07:44 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	These Tatar sabres with their distinctive needle points( by the hilts termed 'ordynka' ) are fascinating, and I always marveled at how these ultra thin points could be used without snapping off. While in pitched or standing combat is one thing, but on horseback even in position the dynamic movements of the horse and the opponent would seem bad for a blade imbedded through mail. With this type point, that brings me to the fabled 'flyssa' of the Kabyles in Algeria, and with the Ottoman presence there I always wondered if the Circassian elements among Ottoman forces brought such influence to the needle points on many flyssa. While again digressing geographically it goes to the effect of armor piercing blades.

2nd November 2018, 10:08 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If we went so far in our digressions, any documented evidence in favor ( or against) flissa being a stabbing weapon? Or slashing? Maghribean cavalry ( just like Aravian) was riding camels and the very height of that obnoxious creature may explain the length of " newer" flissas. But I have a problem imagining flissas as slashers. May be totally wrong, though.

27th November 2018, 07:10 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I must say like B.I. did years ago - A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons