A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Ariel is right when he writes, and so is B.I.
"Looking for a katar with obvious mail-induced damage to the tip is, IMHO, an exercise in futility. A stuck one would remain on the battlefield, a lightly damaged would be fixed and a badly damaged would be discarded. In any case, none of them would be preserved in the armoury or sold to a collector.

BI is 100% correct: the success of an attempt to penetrate mail depends on relative qualities of a blade vs. mail. What happens if an irresistible force meets an immovable object is a question better left to philosophers or theologians."


Although some of us struggle to find out how it all worked, a lot is still a very big question to us.
Small pieces are now and again found here and there - but the riddle is big, very big.


Another thing is, that the knowledge of South Indian and Rajasthan katars seems to be a riddle to some members - even the early ones.
When making a search it should be possible to get an idea of the difference, so please use the 'search' funcion.

[Mercenary]

It is still necessary to understand why would anyone have to try to penetrate a mail shirt. If he is not from "Cold steel" company of course.
I think in India warriors did a great job without it.

[ariel]

Well, the reason is rather simple: if your immediate opponent wears a mail and as they say in Texas “ needs killing”, you kind of wish your weapon had a reinforced tip, be it a Katar, a Zirah Bouk, or an Afghani ch’hura. Any implements that are flat and bendable need not apply.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the reason is rather simple: if your immediate opponent wears a mail and as they say in Texas “ needs killing”, you kind of wish your weapon had a reinforced tip, be it a Katar, a Zirah Bouk, or an Afghani ch’hura. Any implements that are flat and bendable need not apply.

To attack the enemy through his armor? On the horse? By knife or dagger? Only if someone does not love his hand and decided to part with it. And even in this case, our choice:

[Jim McDougall]

Again, always interesting to see these old threads, and great participants who brought amazing perspectives into the fold. Unfortunately far too many of them no longer frequent here.

The topic on the effectiveness of the katar as an armor piercing weapon it seems had some pretty brisk traffic back in those days ,c.2005. Since most of it is of course hypothetical and speculative, it was always great for spirited debate.

If I understand correctly mail was not issued to the rank and file masses, in fact it was an expensive commodity typically worn by the professional or hereditary warriors and higher echelon figures. I know that in certain degree larger numbers of troops might have had mail and familiar weaponry, but these 'standing' forces were largely outnumbered by the conscripted 'cannon fodder'.

In India, it does not seem that mail was as present in certain regions and times, but heavy textiles being worn surely offered protection again sword cuts and other weapon threats. I think one of the main issues with mail was its maintenance. As it became rusted or corroded it became brittle and subject to breakage impacted, especially when a point entered the ring and expanded it.

While this topic is interesting, it seems that the actual results were circumstantial and the condition of the mail, the strength of the user often highly augmented with the typical adrenalin etc. and such factors would determine the viability of the katar as questioned.

If the use of a thickened point on these was not effectively proven, it does not seem likely the feature would have continued in the production of its blades.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If the use of a thickened point on these was not effectively proven, it does not seem likely the feature would have continued in the production of its blades.

Very true.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If I understand correctly mail was not issued to the rank and file masses, in fact it was an expensive commodity typically worn by the professional or hereditary warriors and higher echelon figures...

You mean to say that mail shirt, char-aina, helmets, bazubands and so on were exclusively for elite horse riders?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

You mean to say that mail shirt, char-aina, helmets, bazubands and so on were exclusively for elite horse riders?

No not really, I meant that large numbers of 'rank and file' forces may have ranged from peasantry with little more than tools or implements, while numbers of others may have had all manner of captured or surplus equipment. While artwork suggests that things were like modern military and soldiers stood in line to receive 'government issue' goods that seems pretty infeasible given the cost and production demands for these kinds of equipment.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...but heavy textiles being worn surely offered protection again sword cuts and other weapon threats

Quite so. Thanks. It was a big problem. For British.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Quite so. Thanks. It was a big problem. For British.

It was indeed, and there are many reports of complaints by British troopers that their swords would not cut into or penetrate in many cases due to these kinds of matters with heavy textile material worn by other forces. In the Crimea, the Russian great coats, as you know, were also highly impenetrable.