Nomadic swords

ariel · 27th October 2018, 07:15 PM

Well, it depends how one looks at it:-)
As you say, the 2 panels may be a "clasical" tunkou with a separate inscription panel, or an analogy of a "Chinese" tunkou with a slit in the middle.
But how about my own example? It is dated 1217, the koftgari is worn and partially lost, but the base-located wall-to-wall decoration and the " upside-down" orientation of a very long inscription at the top is obvious.
And, of course, one should not forget the tunkou on the great majority of Persian khanjars and the yataghans from Turkey: they all have the "upside-down" pattern. In the latter case, tunkou became just a triangular element with the long side along the spine , including just the cheap crude incision of the outlines.

My point is that with time the orientation of tunkou flipped over from the edge-located to the spine-located. What was the reason I have no idea, but a placement of long inscriptions along the spine fits nicely with the general idea.

ariel · 25th November 2018, 01:48 AM

Folks and Philip in particular:
I understand that actual dated examples are significantly more reliable than primitive drawings. But when the same feature appears in more than one quality image, the index of "believability" goes up.
Earlier, I have shown a fresco from the Gracanica monastery showing St. Nikita holding a saber with an "upside down" tunkou.
Recently, I have found another one, also from Serbia: Archangel Michael with an identically looking sword . This fresco is dated 1346, and is located ar Pec Partiarchate, Church of St. Demetrius in Kosovo.

What do you say?

Philip · 25th November 2018, 02:37 AM

The more we see, whether in art or "in the flesh", the more complete our knowledge will be. Why not take these various depictions as "suggestive of the possibility that..." even though the surviving material strongly indicates otherwise. Personally I put more credence in an actual example of something as opposed to a hand-drawn depiction. Especially a work of art produced within specific traditional canons (religious iconography certainly qualifies) and whose primary "big picture" focus is not the miniscule details of weapons or costume.

However, we can't pretend at this time to have seen every archaic sword that has continued to exist down to our time -- discoveries are being made all the time and I'm sure there are plenty more still buried. Let's hope that future uncovering is done within an archaeological context (as opposed to "dig and grab" by amateurs) so that we can be more precise in our attributions and chronology. We can adjust our conclusions about tunkous, or any other point as more physical evidence becomes available for our examination.

ariel · 25th November 2018, 09:19 PM

Philip,
You are a hard man to convince:-)

In my defense I can mention David Nicolle’s books, Indonesian and Indian temple statues, Persian and Indian miniatures, Khudiakov’s books on South Siberian weapons etc, etc. All of them are based on artistic depictions of various weaponry, religious included.

I fully agree that material objects trump them evidentially. On the other hand, their relative value is limited by their scarcity, preservation state and , most importantly, their attribution and dating: most of them, at least the nomadic ones, come from Russian and Ukrainian “ black diggers”. Come to think of it, even the most famous of them, the Charlemagne’s one, is of uncertain provenance. They are like a proverbial girl with a curl on her forehead:-) But when they are good, they are very good: I could not agree with you more.
We do have plenty of “upside down” examples belonging to the descendants of nomadic warriors: Persia, Turkey, Mamluks, Moghuls, But all of them are late and have only approximations of the pattern seen on Serbian frescoes.

Let’s keep our collective eyes peeled for a good one one with the “upside down” tunkou. After that we have plenty of iconographic and actual evidence to build a stronger case.

TVV · 9th June 2019, 04:05 AM

Here is another typical late Khazar period sword, 8th-9th c. AD. The double edged pointy tip is clearly visible.

Teisani · 5th March 2023, 08:06 PM

Nicely preserved sabre. https://tula.bezformata.com/listnews...vka/112552478/

Teisani · 16th January 2024, 05:26 PM

A study of the Eastern Sword - Kirill Rivkin, English. It's an old video, but worth posting I think.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXGrTxp3Umo

27th October 2018, 07:15 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, it depends how one looks at it:-) As you say, the 2 panels may be a "clasical" tunkou with a separate inscription panel, or an analogy of a "Chinese" tunkou with a slit in the middle. But how about my own example? It is dated 1217, the koftgari is worn and partially lost, but the base-located wall-to-wall decoration and the " upside-down" orientation of a very long inscription at the top is obvious. And, of course, one should not forget the tunkou on the great majority of Persian khanjars and the yataghans from Turkey: they all have the "upside-down" pattern. In the latter case, tunkou became just a triangular element with the long side along the spine , including just the cheap crude incision of the outlines. My point is that with time the orientation of tunkou flipped over from the edge-located to the spine-located. What was the reason I have no idea, but a placement of long inscriptions along the spine fits nicely with the general idea. Attached Images

25th November 2018, 01:48 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Folks and Philip in particular: I understand that actual dated examples are significantly more reliable than primitive drawings. But when the same feature appears in more than one quality image, the index of "believability" goes up. Earlier, I have shown a fresco from the Gracanica monastery showing St. Nikita holding a saber with an "upside down" tunkou. Recently, I have found another one, also from Serbia: Archangel Michael with an identically looking sword . This fresco is dated 1346, and is located ar Pec Partiarchate, Church of St. Demetrius in Kosovo. What do you say? Attached Images

9th June 2019, 04:05 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Here is another typical late Khazar period sword, 8th-9th c. AD. The double edged pointy tip is clearly visible. Attached Images

5th March 2023, 08:06 PM	#6
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Nicely preserved sabre. https://tula.bezformata.com/listnews...vka/112552478/ Attached Images

25th November 2018, 02:37 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The more we see, whether in art or "in the flesh", the more complete our knowledge will be. Why not take these various depictions as "suggestive of the possibility that..." even though the surviving material strongly indicates otherwise. Personally I put more credence in an actual example of something as opposed to a hand-drawn depiction. Especially a work of art produced within specific traditional canons (religious iconography certainly qualifies) and whose primary "big picture" focus is not the miniscule details of weapons or costume. However, we can't pretend at this time to have seen every archaic sword that has continued to exist down to our time -- discoveries are being made all the time and I'm sure there are plenty more still buried. Let's hope that future uncovering is done within an archaeological context (as opposed to "dig and grab" by amateurs) so that we can be more precise in our attributions and chronology. We can adjust our conclusions about tunkous, or any other point as more physical evidence becomes available for our examination.

25th November 2018, 09:19 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Philip, You are a hard man to convince:-) In my defense I can mention David Nicolle’s books, Indonesian and Indian temple statues, Persian and Indian miniatures, Khudiakov’s books on South Siberian weapons etc, etc. All of them are based on artistic depictions of various weaponry, religious included. I fully agree that material objects trump them evidentially. On the other hand, their relative value is limited by their scarcity, preservation state and , most importantly, their attribution and dating: most of them, at least the nomadic ones, come from Russian and Ukrainian “ black diggers”. Come to think of it, even the most famous of them, the Charlemagne’s one, is of uncertain provenance. They are like a proverbial girl with a curl on her forehead:-) But when they are good, they are very good: I could not agree with you more. We do have plenty of “upside down” examples belonging to the descendants of nomadic warriors: Persia, Turkey, Mamluks, Moghuls, But all of them are late and have only approximations of the pattern seen on Serbian frescoes. Let’s keep our collective eyes peeled for a good one one with the “upside down” tunkou. After that we have plenty of iconographic and actual evidence to build a stronger case.

16th January 2024, 05:26 PM	#7
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	A study of the Eastern Sword - Kirill Rivkin, English. It's an old video, but worth posting I think. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXGrTxp3Umo