Nomadic swords

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Teodor,
I cannot see any rivet holes in the tang. Do you think the original owners used some kind of mastique, akin to Indian tulwars, or was the tang damaged badly and the only way to fix it was with some kind of black steel epoxy? My original Khazar's tang was broken ( the seller was negligent) and I had to use a little bit of that epoxy to secure broken ends. It holds well, and the color matches the tannate solution, so I am ( almost) OK with it. I guess that 1300 years from now we will look worse than that. Some plastic surger-ized celebrities look worse even now, when they are still alive.

Unfortunately I cannot tell for certain. It is very possible that there was a hole (or holes) but those were closed by accumulation of rust/dirt when the sword was berried and then sealed when it was restored after it was dug out.

As for Kubur's question of the word Nomadic, I assumed that it is used in the context of this threat to refer to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, as defined in Rivkin's book.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by TVV

As for Kubur's question of the word Nomadic, I assumed that it is used in the context of this threat to refer to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, as defined in Rivkin's book.

Correct.

[ariel]

Do we have any reliable evidence of the presence or absence of Habakis on Japanese swords before 13 century?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by ariel

Do we have any reliable evidence of the presence or absence of Habakis on Japanese swords before 13 century?

Per Leon Kapp, The Craft of the Japanese Sword, 1988: The chapter on habaki contains this historical background,

"Exactly how the habaki developed in Japan is not known. Like much of sword technology, it may have come from China by way of Korea. All steel swords in Japan, even the oldest straight blades from about the eighth century, have habaki. Early examples are welded onto the hilt, and are short compared to the ones seen today.

Habaki were a separate metal fitting by the Heian period. A few extant examples date from that time. The earliest habaki were probably made from iron, and later from pot metal, most of which was copper. Copper remains the metal of choice today... Unlike habaki today, however, these Heian-period habaki do not have foil coverings or decorations, and their sides are very thin and flat."

These two paragraphs are worthy of comment and analysis.
1. The author states that the habaki was a hallmark of Japanese sword construction from the beginning, and proposes a continental origin. I am searching for images of examples of very early Chinese and Korean steel swords (the backswords or pallasches that were the inspiration for the earliest swords made in Japan) that corroborate this. Unfortunately, all those that I am aware of are excavated pieces so seriously corroded (often rusted into their scabbards) that blade details are not discernible.

2. He states that the earliest habaki were of iron and have "very thin and flat" sides. This is in keeping with the proto-tunkou sleeves which we see on so many of the so-called "nomad swords" which are the focus of this thread. Thin and flat sides do little if anything to provide the function of a later habaki which is to seal the mouth of the scabbard (with sword fully sheathed) AND to keep the sides of the blade from rubbing against the wood of the scabbard channel and thus degrading the finely polished finish. The fully-developed habaki addresses these needs in an admirable fashion due to its complex lateral contours and distal taper. Likewise for the fully functional tunkou of substantial gauge as seen on many Ming / Qing transitional era sabers -- the thickness of the metal which is in relief to the blade surface, and the extended "tongue" along the edge, both stabilize the blade quite well within the scabbard.

3. Mr Kapp makes an interesting comment in that the earliest habaki "are short compared to the ones seen today". A modern habaki is also quite short compared to just about any Chinese tunkou or its functional and stylistic equivalents seen on medieval Eurasian (OK, "nomad") sabers, or on some of their Ottoman or Persian descendants. Furthermore, the extended "tongue" along the edge side which is a common feature of these continental types is not seen in Japan. This consideration leads me to suggest that perhaps the habaki had an independent origin in Japan and that an historical analysis should distinguish it from the tunkou (and its Inner Asian antecedents).

Ariel, to answer your previous question, yes I have Rivkin's book. I like the range of material covered and the quantity and quality of its illustrations but I also share some of Kubur's critiques. All in all, it's a valuable contribution to the literature and we are the richer for it.

[Kubur]

Not only Korean, Japanese or Chinese have this feature but all S-East Asian sword like this guom for example.
Not only sabers but also swords, look at the Tuaregs swords for example...

[ariel]

Philip,
Thanks for the answer. I am not, and have never been, knowledgeable enough about East Asian weapons ( China, Japan, Korea etc) and am glad for the opportunity to be educated by the “gurus”.

As to your reluctance to rely on images:
History of anything is an in exact science, if it is a science at all. It lacks the cardinal defining scientific instrument: ability to conduct an experiment. Historians have to operate with remaining materials and with testimonials by long-dead witnesses of uncertain veracity. And the further back we wish to dig, the less actual materiel we have at our disposal. Necessarily, we have to engage our personal opinions formed on the basis of very meager data sets. Most of what Khudyakov and other wrote about early nomadic swords is based on a limited number of rock carvings. Artistic imprecision was always a problem , even with Rembrandt and the Orientalists, but we have to take artistic images at their face value if they are reproducible across and along the sources. Of course, actual objects are better, but even they have uncertain provenance and datability. In his chapter on nomadic swords Kirill has acknowledged it time and time again.
I trust Iranian images ( ##626 f and o) because in the same book there are other similar images. As to the sword of St. Nikita, it conforms in all details ( blade, handle, pommel) to actual examples and the entire image is highly realistic. Again, the “ inverted tunkou” is seen on thousands objects from that and later eras. I would view this images as fully confirmatory of the real state of affairs.

[ariel]

Kubur,
I do not know much about Tuaregs, and am not sure whether the decorated area has anything to do with tunkou, but the Ottomans were there for ages.
Even if your assumption is correct, it does not prove much: Tuaregs were recipients of Eastern tradition, not its originators and donors.

Guom’s tunkou is not surprising: Vietnam , just like Korea and Japan got their inspiration from China. And Mongols were there also, 13 century.

[TVV]

I do not see a tunkou/habaki on the wide bladed takouba. It is not unusual for takouba blades to be mounted with a sandwich construction to the hilt, especially older and re-used blades where the tang may have been compromised precluding being pinned. Per Iain's research, the wide bladed takoubas were status symbols, usually carried by Emir's bodyguards and all I personally see is extra decoration at the base of the blade, aimed at enhancing the prestige of the owner.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur,
Guom’s tunkou is not surprising: Vietnam , just like Korea and Japan got their inspiration from China. And Mongols were there also, 13 century.

If guards similar in style to Japanese tsuba appear in Vietnam no later than the 13th century, then we can see the sleeves on the blades much later. In my opinion, habaki were borrowed in the first third of the 17th century, when Japanese weapons became incredibly popular in Vietnam, especially in its central part, in the possessions of the chua Trinh.