A Spanish colonial broadsword/cutlass

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2018, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

There are many examples of three chanelled solingen (PDL, Knecht) staright blades with the "No me saques" motto. Both with solingen three bars hilts or other ad hoc constructions.

Very well pointed out, and indeed there were an extraordinary volume of these triple channel and flat face with hexagonal section blades. The variations in these and with various forte blocks or 'shoulders' span over a very long period. Thank you BTW for the amazing examples you illustrate!

A very interesting aspect of these blades has been not only their use over generations in the Spanish Colonial sphere, but there have been incidental occurrences of them in a number of other contexts. For example, many of these were still in use during the Mexican-American war of 1846, and many were captured. There were cases of these appearing later in the Civil War in Confederate officers swords (Col. Custer also acquired one of these taken from a Confederate officer).

In another variation, these three channel blades were Solingen products later in the 19th century but these were not with this section, intended for foreign markets particularly Sudan, where they were used both in the Kaskara and in cases with Tuaregs in the Sahara (Briggs, 1965). In his article Briggs notes cases of blades with the 'Spanish motto' in the Sahara, but more of an anomaly it would seem.

As with most of our study with many faceted instances of trade, colonial settings, and repurposing, refurbishing etc. over long periods the spectrum of variations in most aspects is fascinating and often frustrating in trying to classify.

M ELEY · 22nd October 2018, 01:18 AM

Excellent points made by both of you gents concerning the hexagonal blades and the refurbishing of these and other weapons in colonial America and further points south. Jim, you bring up the important and often over-looked aspect of trade and how many blades and weapons from other cultures often made the rounds to other places. We have had this conversation on the Forum many times about the Brazilian sabers that have Philippine aspects and Sudanese swords with Solingen blades. Often it seems, some collectors are bothered by the 'borrowed' factor of these pieces and have a tendency to steer clear of them, which is a shame. These artifacts, for all of their "composite" nature, are a true reflection of where two cultures meet and the influences they had over each other. It is similar to the trends of the patterns as well, such as British swords taking on an Arabic tone after Nelson's Egyptian campaign.

My point is I understand there will always be purists in collecting and researching. It it isn't a 'model 1796 something-something or a recognized or repeated pattern, they don't want it. The problem is, the same scholars might be biased and believe that all composites are fakes done at a later time or they will brand them as 'inferior workmanship' made by a dunce blacksmith. This attitude really miffs me! It is counter-productive to educating ourselves about the time period, culture and events going on that brought these into being! If we had this attitude about composite-types, we would have to boycott the majority of American made weapons used during the Revolution, the entire list of 'private purchase' naval weapons up until the end of Age of Fighting Sail', colonial Spanish (and later Mexican) swords, not to mention all of the weapons of the Confederacy, often slapped together in primitive forges under times of desperation. I seemed to have gone off a bit! Sorry!

BTW, the 4th sword down (German broadsword with brass lion hilt) used to be mine. It was a 6-sided blade made by Hirschberg & Schimmerbaum? Marked 'Solingen' one side and the Spanish motto on the other, made for the Span market here in the colonies (these two merchants were active in the Americas post 1795). Note the hilt (a composite!) is from a French sword.

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2018, 02:53 AM

WOW! Mark...….beautifully said, and THATS exactly what I'm talking about regarding the inherent value of most all arms comprising actual period components and trade blades etc. As a historian, as opposed to a 'collector' I look for the entire history and disposition of a weapon rather than its condition and integrity as homogenous or otherwise purely one thing or another.

The influences brought into many arms, mostly in hilts and decoration, often reflects distinct and important factors pertinent to the time the weapon was assembled and hilts fashioned.

You mention the influence of the Egyptian campaigns on British swords, and I had one of the British M1803 infantry officers lionhead sabres of the post campaign period. These had a lionhead with flowing mane and the four slot hilt of earlier British swords prior to and during the Revolutionary War.
The example I had was in every aspect the same lionhead, however......the mane was entirely in the fashion of the famed sphinx. There were other swords which carried other themes from Egypt and these campaigns.

The lionhead sword pictured in the earlier post I remember very well was yours, and a prime example of what I am saying.
It is Mexican and if I recall had the famed 'Spanish motto' on this triple fullered blade. Kirschbaum & Schimmelbusch were of course a Solingen firm working under this heading in the latter 18th century as you note.

The sword is hilted with a curious stylized lionhead of British form which reflects the seemed amalgamation of doghead as well as lionhead in character but cast in whole with representation of a mane drawn rather than in relief.

I am inclined to recall this sword as likely a Mexican officers sword from the 'Revoltionary' period (c.1820) with an earlier imported blade from Solingen. The theme of the hilt reflects the Spanish interests in the American Revolution, and possibly this style 'lionhead' may reflect that.

Each weapon has a story, and in these kinds of examples, the dynamics reach often fascinating dimension. This is something you have always known as seen in the items you have collected and shared here over many years.

Hotspur · 24th October 2018, 03:29 AM

The eagle pommel shown was an Ames type, if not truly an Ames, with the flared collar to the pommel. An 18th century Spanish cavalry blade. The Ames screaming eagle was first seen on their infantry and artillery contract pieces of the mid 1830s. It is quite possible Ames was responsible for the grip and guard casting as well but that would mean a collaboration after the Alamo but before the US war with Mexico.

I archived those images off of David Parks dealer's website in 2007. He never showed an entire overall shot of the piece but one side in sections.

The Mexicans seemed to like the Bavarian 1826 sabres as well.

Cheers
GC

David R · 29th December 2018, 12:20 AM

You would be surprised how old that blade form is, a flat shearing blade with multiple fullers. I was in a Danish museum some years ago and saw the remains of one excavated from a late Roman context. I posted about it on this site a while back. It could have been a 19th C Solingen blade, except for the Latin and the figure of Mars on the blade.

24th October 2018, 03:29 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	The eagle pommel shown was an Ames type, if not truly an Ames, with the flared collar to the pommel. An 18th century Spanish cavalry blade. The Ames screaming eagle was first seen on their infantry and artillery contract pieces of the mid 1830s. It is quite possible Ames was responsible for the grip and guard casting as well but that would mean a collaboration after the Alamo but before the US war with Mexico. I archived those images off of David Parks dealer's website in 2007. He never showed an entire overall shot of the piece but one side in sections. The Mexicans seemed to like the Bavarian 1826 sabres as well. Cheers GC Attached Images

22nd October 2018, 01:18 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Excellent points made by both of you gents concerning the hexagonal blades and the refurbishing of these and other weapons in colonial America and further points south. Jim, you bring up the important and often over-looked aspect of trade and how many blades and weapons from other cultures often made the rounds to other places. We have had this conversation on the Forum many times about the Brazilian sabers that have Philippine aspects and Sudanese swords with Solingen blades. Often it seems, some collectors are bothered by the 'borrowed' factor of these pieces and have a tendency to steer clear of them, which is a shame. These artifacts, for all of their "composite" nature, are a true reflection of where two cultures meet and the influences they had over each other. It is similar to the trends of the patterns as well, such as British swords taking on an Arabic tone after Nelson's Egyptian campaign. My point is I understand there will always be purists in collecting and researching. It it isn't a 'model 1796 something-something or a recognized or repeated pattern, they don't want it. The problem is, the same scholars might be biased and believe that all composites are fakes done at a later time or they will brand them as 'inferior workmanship' made by a dunce blacksmith. This attitude really miffs me! It is counter-productive to educating ourselves about the time period, culture and events going on that brought these into being! If we had this attitude about composite-types, we would have to boycott the majority of American made weapons used during the Revolution, the entire list of 'private purchase' naval weapons up until the end of Age of Fighting Sail', colonial Spanish (and later Mexican) swords, not to mention all of the weapons of the Confederacy, often slapped together in primitive forges under times of desperation. I seemed to have gone off a bit! Sorry! BTW, the 4th sword down (German broadsword with brass lion hilt) used to be mine. It was a 6-sided blade made by Hirschberg & Schimmerbaum? Marked 'Solingen' one side and the Spanish motto on the other, made for the Span market here in the colonies (these two merchants were active in the Americas post 1795). Note the hilt (a composite!) is from a French sword.

22nd October 2018, 02:53 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	WOW! Mark...….beautifully said, and THATS exactly what I'm talking about regarding the inherent value of most all arms comprising actual period components and trade blades etc. As a historian, as opposed to a 'collector' I look for the entire history and disposition of a weapon rather than its condition and integrity as homogenous or otherwise purely one thing or another. The influences brought into many arms, mostly in hilts and decoration, often reflects distinct and important factors pertinent to the time the weapon was assembled and hilts fashioned. You mention the influence of the Egyptian campaigns on British swords, and I had one of the British M1803 infantry officers lionhead sabres of the post campaign period. These had a lionhead with flowing mane and the four slot hilt of earlier British swords prior to and during the Revolutionary War. The example I had was in every aspect the same lionhead, however......the mane was entirely in the fashion of the famed sphinx. There were other swords which carried other themes from Egypt and these campaigns. The lionhead sword pictured in the earlier post I remember very well was yours, and a prime example of what I am saying. It is Mexican and if I recall had the famed 'Spanish motto' on this triple fullered blade. Kirschbaum & Schimmelbusch were of course a Solingen firm working under this heading in the latter 18th century as you note. The sword is hilted with a curious stylized lionhead of British form which reflects the seemed amalgamation of doghead as well as lionhead in character but cast in whole with representation of a mane drawn rather than in relief. I am inclined to recall this sword as likely a Mexican officers sword from the 'Revoltionary' period (c.1820) with an earlier imported blade from Solingen. The theme of the hilt reflects the Spanish interests in the American Revolution, and possibly this style 'lionhead' may reflect that. Each weapon has a story, and in these kinds of examples, the dynamics reach often fascinating dimension. This is something you have always known as seen in the items you have collected and shared here over many years.

29th December 2018, 12:20 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	You would be surprised how old that blade form is, a flat shearing blade with multiple fullers. I was in a Danish museum some years ago and saw the remains of one excavated from a late Roman context. I posted about it on this site a while back. It could have been a 19th C Solingen blade, except for the Latin and the figure of Mars on the blade.