Portuguese cavalry saber

Will M · 15th October 2018, 08:30 PM

Looks like Charles Reeves, Birmingham.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2018, 05:55 AM

Surely an anomaly.
Charles Reeves is believed to have begun with partner Joseph Greaves in 1829. While the blade marking is inconsistent with the manner of stamping blades at this time...usually on the back near the hilt.....this example is apparently a sword made for export to Spain.

It is of the M1821 regulation pattern for light cavalry, which had interruptions in production until 1829, when these were produced in number. They were superceded by the pattern 1853.

The unusual stamp on the face of the blade REEVES and the abbreviated Birmingham at the forte is as these were marked. It is odd to see the 'ears' from the backstrap usually on the troopers M1829 while this hilt has the braided wire wrap for the officers cavalry sabres.

Also unusual is the single carry ring on the scabbard, which on British cavalry swords there were two until much later.

fernando · 16th October 2018, 04:28 PM

As you see Bruno, your saber is not Portuguese, and the specialist in its context is Jim.
I just wonder whether this model was exported to Spain and not (also) to Portugal. Just wonder, not documented at all.

bvieira · 16th October 2018, 07:31 PM

Hello,

I know the saber is not portuguese, most of the blades and sabers used by portuguese troops were made outside portugal... soligen, toledo, Great Britain....

My question right know is if this a export model or a pure british troops version!

Tks!

Best Regards,

BV

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2018, 08:17 PM

I have only seen one of these offered by a very reputable dealer.....who I will not name as there are notable restrictions regarding commercial traffic here. In this case it was virtually identical with the exact same forte marking format down to the abbreviated Birmingham.

As the 1821 (1829) pattern was produced through the 1840s and not replaced until the M1853 pattern came out (ironically also produced largely by Reeves) it would estimate the period of this sword late 1830-40s. It seems unlikely that Reeves or anyone for that matter would produce these for export and in such an atypical manner:
1. the wire braid grip yet with riveted ears off backstrap.
2. the blade with such unconventional markings and abbreviation for
Birmingham. Also it is dramatically reprofiled if indeed a British
blade. The blade on these 1829 patterns was 35.5 " long.
3. The scabbard is with single carry ring....which is more suited for
a Sam Browne belt (sash) than the double ring carry.
The double ring carry on earlier scabbards was designed to be worn
low slung when as mostly fashion but some practicality for horseman.
The large surround on the chape is termed a drag as it is for doing so as
the cavalryman walked and scabbard tip scraped the ground....sort of like
jingling spurs (an old Texas thing) .
Obviously a sash carried scabbard and shorter blade would not require
a drag.

So is this a Spanish made example imitating the British? The Germans copied the M1796 British light cavalry sabre until they created their own version....the M1811 Blucher sabel.....perhaps the Spanish followed in this manner?
After seeing only one similar example I am not convinced of the Reeves export situation....but this is certainly an 1829 type sword....and in no way a sabre made for British troops.

midelburgo · 16th October 2018, 10:23 PM

This model was made in Toledo by a private entrepreneur called Ballesteros for the Portuguese army.

It was discussed here:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

Similar ones made in Eberfeld
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

fernando · 16th October 2018, 10:54 PM

The model yes, might have been known to Portuguese forces but, this specific example doesn't appear to be a Portuguese import. In the place were these 'late' pattern swords used to be property marked by the Arsenal do Exercito (AE) there are digits worth of further reasoning, possibly those of a Regiment ?. Also that mark in the guard near the ricasso doesn't seem to be Portuguese. Interesting also the way Birmingham is initialized; doesn't seem to make sense.
Ah ... the dragging swords (espadas de arrasto). It is said that fancy horsemen even reinforced the chapes (here also called mud guards) with iron straps, to make them last longer. Still in the extreme they reached severe wearing.
(Picture courtesy Eduardo Nobre).
And by the way Bruno, is it my eyes or that scabbard looks too large for your sword ? Probably the picture angle is tricking me

.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2018, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

This model was made in Toledo by a private entrepreneur called Ballesteros for the Portuguese army.

It was discussed here:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

Similar ones made in Eberfeld
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

So then it WAS made in Spain......interesting exercise in research. It would have been far less entertaining if we had this information in the original post explaining why this was a Portuguese sabre.....but with a British name on a British pattern sword......so why if it was made in Spain would it be a sword for British troops?

16th October 2018, 10:54 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The model yes, might have been known to Portuguese forces but, this specific example doesn't appear to be a Portuguese import. In the place were these 'late' pattern swords used to be property marked by the Arsenal do Exercito (AE) there are digits worth of further reasoning, possibly those of a Regiment ?. Also that mark in the guard near the ricasso doesn't seem to be Portuguese. Interesting also the way Birmingham is initialized; doesn't seem to make sense. Ah ... the dragging swords (espadas de arrasto). It is said that fancy horsemen even reinforced the chapes (here also called mud guards) with iron straps, to make them last longer. Still in the extreme they reached severe wearing. (Picture courtesy Eduardo Nobre). And by the way Bruno, is it my eyes or that scabbard looks too large for your sword ? Probably the picture angle is tricking me . Attached Images

15th October 2018, 08:30 PM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 416	Looks like Charles Reeves, Birmingham.

16th October 2018, 05:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,745	Surely an anomaly. Charles Reeves is believed to have begun with partner Joseph Greaves in 1829. While the blade marking is inconsistent with the manner of stamping blades at this time...usually on the back near the hilt.....this example is apparently a sword made for export to Spain. It is of the M1821 regulation pattern for light cavalry, which had interruptions in production until 1829, when these were produced in number. They were superceded by the pattern 1853. The unusual stamp on the face of the blade REEVES and the abbreviated Birmingham at the forte is as these were marked. It is odd to see the 'ears' from the backstrap usually on the troopers M1829 while this hilt has the braided wire wrap for the officers cavalry sabres. Also unusual is the single carry ring on the scabbard, which on British cavalry swords there were two until much later.

16th October 2018, 04:28 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	As you see Bruno, your saber is not Portuguese, and the specialist in its context is Jim. I just wonder whether this model was exported to Spain and not (also) to Portugal. Just wonder, not documented at all.

16th October 2018, 07:31 PM	#4
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Hello, I know the saber is not portuguese, most of the blades and sabers used by portuguese troops were made outside portugal... soligen, toledo, Great Britain.... My question right know is if this a export model or a pure british troops version! Tks! Best Regards, BV

16th October 2018, 08:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,745	I have only seen one of these offered by a very reputable dealer.....who I will not name as there are notable restrictions regarding commercial traffic here. In this case it was virtually identical with the exact same forte marking format down to the abbreviated Birmingham. As the 1821 (1829) pattern was produced through the 1840s and not replaced until the M1853 pattern came out (ironically also produced largely by Reeves) it would estimate the period of this sword late 1830-40s. It seems unlikely that Reeves or anyone for that matter would produce these for export and in such an atypical manner: 1. the wire braid grip yet with riveted ears off backstrap. 2. the blade with such unconventional markings and abbreviation for Birmingham. Also it is dramatically reprofiled if indeed a British blade. The blade on these 1829 patterns was 35.5 " long. 3. The scabbard is with single carry ring....which is more suited for a Sam Browne belt (sash) than the double ring carry. The double ring carry on earlier scabbards was designed to be worn low slung when as mostly fashion but some practicality for horseman. The large surround on the chape is termed a drag as it is for doing so as the cavalryman walked and scabbard tip scraped the ground....sort of like jingling spurs (an old Texas thing) . Obviously a sash carried scabbard and shorter blade would not require a drag. So is this a Spanish made example imitating the British? The Germans copied the M1796 British light cavalry sabre until they created their own version....the M1811 Blucher sabel.....perhaps the Spanish followed in this manner? After seeing only one similar example I am not convinced of the Reeves export situation....but this is certainly an 1829 type sword....and in no way a sabre made for British troops.

16th October 2018, 10:23 PM	#6
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 290	This model was made in Toledo by a private entrepreneur called Ballesteros for the Portuguese army. It was discussed here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros Similar ones made in Eberfeld http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros