How many researchers are there on the forum when it comes to Indian wapons

Nihl · 23rd September 2018, 11:24 PM

Hi all!

I actually would consider myself somewhat of an Indian weapons researcher. Though I'm relatively new to it, and as a result spend most of my time reading/learning what I can that's out there right now, one day I'd love to be able to conduct my own research. Currently the closest thing to research that I do is simply looking into how the names for different weapons have changed over time, and how the definitions of the names seem to shift over time. Kinda like how "pata" (patta, puttah, etc.) apparently used to refer to a long blade of grass, like the long blade of a pata, but nowadays many Indian martial arts practitioners see the proper name as "dandpatta", with some part of the word meaning belt, in reference to how flexible modern pata blades are when made for modern Indian martial arts (so flexible they could be worn as belts). I'm sure this isn't new to any of you, but it's still just an example of what I mean.

@Ian, I'm actually a "young person" that lives in Minneapolis (assuming you mean Minneapolis, Minnesota)! I'd love to talk in person with people that share my interests! If they still live Minneapolis, please, let me know how I could get in touch with them!

For everyone else, honestly, just throw stuff at me! Links, books, whatever, I'll do my best to find and acquire it. Money and traveling is a problem, sure, but I'm continuously surprised by how many different facets this hobby leads into and I love it!

Ian · 25th September 2018, 07:24 AM

Hi Nihl,

Welcome to the forum. You have a PM.

Ian.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2018, 01:01 PM

Nihil,
I tried to PM you from the forum memberlist, but was blocked for some reason or other.

Please PM me from the same list with your mail address, and I will send you a book list.
Jens

mariusgmioc · 25th September 2018, 05:37 PM

Hello Jens!
You say "researchers"?!
What are researchers?
Is a collector who reads a few books and had a look at a few examples a "researcher"?
I think not.
I think a researcher is one who spends some time in India, visiting museums and talking to curators and historians. Asking them questions about specific traits, for specific weapons, for specific geographic regions, for specific time periods, for specific religions (Islam/Hindu/Christian).
Visiting private collections and talking to the collectors. Asking them the same specific questions.
Then, after accumulating sufficient experience, formulate some hypothesis and proceed to verify them... in the field, again talking to museum curators, historians and collectors.
Then, draw the conclusions and put them in a thesis, or book... to be published and face the scrutiny of other researchers, museum curators and collectors.
But this would span over several years and would require a lot of money... as travelling never comes cheap.
So I think there are very few genuine researchers.
Elgood may be one of them. However, reading his books I sometimes find them sometimes very anecdotical. For example in his "Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbours..." he consistently fails to provide arguments as to why a certain Yathagan is considerd to be from Bosnia and not from Turkey, Greece or else. Based on what characteristics (materials used, shape of the hilt, shape of blade, decorations, written text, etc.) does he make his assertions. Is it based on a rigurous analysis of the characteristics, or is it based on the information he got from the owner?! Then what if he is wrong? How can I, a novice collector, verify his asertions or use his book to identify and correctly locate a blade in space and time.
Dubito, ergo cogito!
My two cents...

Ian · 25th September 2018, 10:01 PM

Hi marius,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this fascinating topic. What you describe is typical of ethnographic research--boots on the ground, filling copious notebooks with data, immersed in the culture, etc ... However, there are other legitimate research efforts that are less demanding on time and resources.

For example, reading scholarly works and historical accounts adds to our understanding of what others have seen and may be the only practical way of assessing changes over time. Current local informants are not always the most accurate source of information, and historical trends and records are not always preserved accurately within their original cultures. The internet has certainly expanded our access to knowledge such that some research can be done from the comfort of our homes. While much of this research is of the "hypothesis generating" type, it is still useful and stimulates discussion.

There are very, very few Robert Elgoods in this world who can devote a substantial portion of their professional careers to Indian Arms and Armor.

Ian.

23rd September 2018, 11:24 PM	#1
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Hi all! I actually would consider myself somewhat of an Indian weapons researcher. Though I'm relatively new to it, and as a result spend most of my time reading/learning what I can that's out there right now, one day I'd love to be able to conduct my own research. Currently the closest thing to research that I do is simply looking into how the names for different weapons have changed over time, and how the definitions of the names seem to shift over time. Kinda like how "pata" (patta, puttah, etc.) apparently used to refer to a long blade of grass, like the long blade of a pata, but nowadays many Indian martial arts practitioners see the proper name as "dandpatta", with some part of the word meaning belt, in reference to how flexible modern pata blades are when made for modern Indian martial arts (so flexible they could be worn as belts). I'm sure this isn't new to any of you, but it's still just an example of what I mean. @Ian, I'm actually a "young person" that lives in Minneapolis (assuming you mean Minneapolis, Minnesota)! I'd love to talk in person with people that share my interests! If they still live Minneapolis, please, let me know how I could get in touch with them! For everyone else, honestly, just throw stuff at me! Links, books, whatever, I'll do my best to find and acquire it. Money and traveling is a problem, sure, but I'm continuously surprised by how many different facets this hobby leads into and I love it!

25th September 2018, 07:24 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,454	Hi Nihl, Welcome to the forum. You have a PM. Ian.

25th September 2018, 01:01 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nihil, I tried to PM you from the forum memberlist, but was blocked for some reason or other. Please PM me from the same list with your mail address, and I will send you a book list. Jens

25th September 2018, 05:37 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hello Jens! You say "researchers"?! What are researchers? Is a collector who reads a few books and had a look at a few examples a "researcher"? I think not. I think a researcher is one who spends some time in India, visiting museums and talking to curators and historians. Asking them questions about specific traits, for specific weapons, for specific geographic regions, for specific time periods, for specific religions (Islam/Hindu/Christian). Visiting private collections and talking to the collectors. Asking them the same specific questions. Then, after accumulating sufficient experience, formulate some hypothesis and proceed to verify them... in the field, again talking to museum curators, historians and collectors. Then, draw the conclusions and put them in a thesis, or book... to be published and face the scrutiny of other researchers, museum curators and collectors. But this would span over several years and would require a lot of money... as travelling never comes cheap. So I think there are very few genuine researchers. Elgood may be one of them. However, reading his books I sometimes find them sometimes very anecdotical. For example in his "Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbours..." he consistently fails to provide arguments as to why a certain Yathagan is considerd to be from Bosnia and not from Turkey, Greece or else. Based on what characteristics (materials used, shape of the hilt, shape of blade, decorations, written text, etc.) does he make his assertions. Is it based on a rigurous analysis of the characteristics, or is it based on the information he got from the owner?! Then what if he is wrong? How can I, a novice collector, verify his asertions or use his book to identify and correctly locate a blade in space and time. Dubito, ergo cogito! My two cents...

25th September 2018, 10:01 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,454	Hi marius, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this fascinating topic. What you describe is typical of ethnographic research--boots on the ground, filling copious notebooks with data, immersed in the culture, etc ... However, there are other legitimate research efforts that are less demanding on time and resources. For example, reading scholarly works and historical accounts adds to our understanding of what others have seen and may be the only practical way of assessing changes over time. Current local informants are not always the most accurate source of information, and historical trends and records are not always preserved accurately within their original cultures. The internet has certainly expanded our access to knowledge such that some research can be done from the comfort of our homes. While much of this research is of the "hypothesis generating" type, it is still useful and stimulates discussion. There are very, very few Robert Elgoods in this world who can devote a substantial portion of their professional careers to Indian Arms and Armor. Ian.