Copper And Brass Philippine Dagger

Ian · 22nd August 2018, 04:37 AM

Hi Robert,

Very interesting little knife. Which culture do you think it comes from? The manufacturing style looks like Northern Luzon work to me. What do you think is the significance of alternating copper with a copper-alloy (brass)?

Ian.

Robert · 22nd August 2018, 07:46 AM

Hello Ian, With the overall styling and the tang extending all the way through the hilt I would believe this to be an Ilocano piece. As for the copper and brass alternating the way they do I am not really sure of its significance, but when counted it adds up to seven a lucky number so I believe that this could also be talismanic in nature. In the photos showing only the hilt the ferrule next to the guard is made of copper, but for some reason (probably lighting) it looks more like brass. The true color can be seen in the first two photos.The one thing I forgot to mention before are the bird motifs carved above each of the panels. These of course represent the upper world and symbolize the sun gods alter ego.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 22nd August 2018, 04:01 PM

Hello Robert,
What a beautiful talismanic dagger, like you said byself loaded with symbolism!

It's a great addition to your copper and brass bladed Philippine dagger/knife collection!

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 22nd August 2018, 05:29 PM

Hello Detlef, And thank you for your kind words and interest in this unusual piece. As these copper bladed daggers seem to be few and far between and even less common than their brass/bronze counterparts. I was extremely happy to have been able to acquire this piece for my collection. I have added a photo to my original posting that was graciously given me by Lorenz (AKA Migueldiaz) in reference to another piece in my collection that helps explain some of the symbolism used on this piece. Finding any information on these copper bladed knives and daggers has proven to be difficult to say the least.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 23rd August 2018, 02:59 PM

Robert and I am have dicussed his new addition to his great collection by mail before and coming to the so called "catmon" flower symbol found on many Philippine blades, sometimes at the handle, sometimes at the scabbard.
We found that the real natural catmon flower has five petals, see first picture. The most catmon flowers I've found on my weapons show only flowers with four petals, only one has indeed five petals.
Shown are at first a flower on the handle of a Bicol blade, next is one on the scabbard from my tres kantos dagger, two one on the leather throat of one of my binangons from the Visayas and at last a four petal flower on one of my Moluccas shields. The last picture shows a flower with five petals on the handle of my ram head sword from Luzon.
Any opinions about this? Are the four petal flowers are indeed catmon flowers? Or this are other flowers?

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:11 AM

Sajen,

I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently.

The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange.

Ian.

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:33 AM

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Quote:

Santan or Ixora coccinea The flowering plants are normally planted near the entrance of one’s house. People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant when grown in large numbers. Flowers are also offered to young maidens which symbolizes the burning passion for their career and love. Recently , there is growing trend among bonsai hobbyists to use them as material for bonsai. This plant is easily grown through cuttings.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Ian.

Sajen · 24th August 2018, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently.

The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange.

Exactly what I want to know and thought byself and the reason why I asked about this. Again, thank you very much!

Detlef

22nd August 2018, 07:46 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ian, With the overall styling and the tang extending all the way through the hilt I would believe this to be an Ilocano piece. As for the copper and brass alternating the way they do I am not really sure of its significance, but when counted it adds up to seven a lucky number so I believe that this could also be talismanic in nature. In the photos showing only the hilt the ferrule next to the guard is made of copper, but for some reason (probably lighting) it looks more like brass. The true color can be seen in the first two photos.The one thing I forgot to mention before are the bird motifs carved above each of the panels. These of course represent the upper world and symbolize the sun gods alter ego. Best, Robert Last edited by Robert; 22nd August 2018 at 07:58 AM.

23rd August 2018, 02:59 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Robert and I am have dicussed his new addition to his great collection by mail before and coming to the so called "catmon" flower symbol found on many Philippine blades, sometimes at the handle, sometimes at the scabbard. We found that the real natural catmon flower has five petals, see first picture. The most catmon flowers I've found on my weapons show only flowers with four petals, only one has indeed five petals. Shown are at first a flower on the handle of a Bicol blade, next is one on the scabbard from my tres kantos dagger, two one on the leather throat of one of my binangons from the Visayas and at last a four petal flower on one of my Moluccas shields. The last picture shows a flower with five petals on the handle of my ram head sword from Luzon. Any opinions about this? Are the four petal flowers are indeed catmon flowers? Or this are other flowers? Regards, Detlef Attached Images

22nd August 2018, 04:37 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Robert, Very interesting little knife. Which culture do you think it comes from? The manufacturing style looks like Northern Luzon work to me. What do you think is the significance of alternating copper with a copper-alloy (brass)? Ian.

22nd August 2018, 04:01 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Robert, What a beautiful talismanic dagger, like you said byself loaded with symbolism! It's a great addition to your copper and brass bladed Philippine dagger/knife collection! Best regards, Detlef

22nd August 2018, 05:29 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, And thank you for your kind words and interest in this unusual piece. As these copper bladed daggers seem to be few and far between and even less common than their brass/bronze counterparts. I was extremely happy to have been able to acquire this piece for my collection. I have added a photo to my original posting that was graciously given me by Lorenz (AKA Migueldiaz) in reference to another piece in my collection that helps explain some of the symbolism used on this piece. Finding any information on these copper bladed knives and daggers has proven to be difficult to say the least. Best, Robert

24th August 2018, 01:11 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Sajen, I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently. The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange. Ian.