Keris Videos (Malay Peninsula)

Green · 15th August 2018, 06:10 AM

I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?

This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia.

the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states)

As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2018, 08:22 AM

This comment is only relevant to the word "warang" or "warangan".

The word appears in Wilkinson, compiled prior to 1900, it was a word in common usage in Malay at that time, but Wilkinson gives origin as Javanese.

The word appears in Old Javanese and has several meanings, none of which relate to arsenic or realgar.

It is actually an interesting word, which possibly deserves further research by historical linguists, the entries in Zoetmulder seem to raise some interesting possibilities:- a relationship to colour?, to illness?, to a keris scabbard (warangka)?

It seems entirely possible that the application of the word to keris staining is something that might only have arisen in Modern Javanese, ie, since mid-17th century.

Green · 15th August 2018, 01:36 PM

Malay is essentially a very simple language. Migrant workers from South India or Nepal for example can pick up the language within 3 months without any formal training course and merely by interacting with their fellow malay co workers.

A great majority of malay words are borrowed from other languages. Primarily from sanskrit and later from arabic when the people became muslims and in the modern era a lot of words are taken fro English such as bas (bus) gelas (glass) komputer (computer) etc...It is not inconcievable that warang/warangan has been adopted by the malay keris community since early days but this word is never used in other situations by general population and if you ask any malays who do not delve in keris , it is almost certain that he will not know the word.

Having said that, and as an aside, it is to the great credit of Soekarno the late president of Indonesia who decided to use malay as the basis for 'bahasa Indonesia' and adopt it as the national language of Indonesia and bind the disparate people of Indonesia that speak all sorts of languages.

David · 15th August 2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?

This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia.

the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states)

As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

I suppose it might be difficult to definitely assess what the lecturer's deeper thoughts on keris origin are simply by watching these videos. I do agree with you Green that the vast majority of keris collectors across the board tend to agree that Jawa is the origin of the keris. However, after watching this entire presentation i find hard to believe that there was not some purposeful intention it present these basic lessons about Malay keris completely devoid of any reference whatsoever to Javanese origins. Does the good Professor actually believe the keris originated in Malaysia? I think we would have to ask him to know for sure. But it does seem that he would like people to believe that is so.
However, with all information about the keris i think it is important not to allow what we might perceive as misinformation color the entire body of information we are viewing. I would recommend a complete viewing before forming any opinions on the over all value of the lecture. Again, i feel a lot of this was very basic information, but from a perspective i do not generally study, so i found valuable.
Regarding warangan in Malay keris culture, we did have this discussion before and it does seem to me that some very strong evidence was presented there that warangan was known and applied to Malay keris at least as early as 1839 if we believe the account written by Newbold at that time in "Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.:
"Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.

"How to damask Krises. - Place on the blade a mixture of boiled rice, sulphur, and salt beat together, first taking the precaution to cover the edges of the weapon with a thin coat of virgin wax. After this has remained on seven days, the damask will have risen on surface; take the composition off, and immerse the blade in the water of a young cocoa-nut, or the juice of a pine-apple, for seven days longer, and wash it well with the juice of a sour lemon. After the rust has been cleared away, rub it with warangan (arsenic) dissolved in lime juice; wash it well with spring water; dry, and anoint it with a cocoa-nut oil."

Other early examples pointing to this knowledge and use were also listed in a thread we had not to long ago. So while we can certainly see this word and process as something that is far more prevalent in Jawa, Bali, Madura and parts of Sumatra, it was certainly not unknown in parts of the Malay Peninsula.

Jean · 15th August 2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I suppose it might be difficult to definitely assess what the lecturer's deeper thoughts on keris origin are simply by watching these videos. I do agree with you Green that the vast majority of keris collectors across the board tend to agree that Jawa is the origin of the keris. However, after watching this entire presentation i find hard to believe that there was not some purposeful intention it present these basic lessons about Malay keris completely devoid of any reference whatsoever to Javanese origins. Does the good Professor actually believe the keris originated in Malaysia? I think we would have to ask him to know for sure. But it does seem that he would like people to believe that is so.

David,
The good Professor mentions the mythical empu Sarah (unknown to me) from Majapahit as the originator of the kris pandai saras so he does not completely rule-out the Indonesian origin of the kris. And I am not able to fully understand what else he said about the origin of the kris (the translation is minimal, may be Green can confirm) so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway it is clear that the Malay kris followed a separate development as compared to Java/ Madura/ Bali since several centuries, but with some Bugis influences in some areas.
Regards

David · 15th August 2018, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

David,
The good Professor mentions the mythical empu Sarah (unknown to me) from Majapahit as the originator of the kris pandai saras so he does not completely rule-out the Indonesian origin of the kris. And I am not able to fully understand what else he said about the origin of the kris (the translation is minimal, may be Green can confirm) so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway it is clear that the Malay kris followed a separate development as compared to Java/ Madura/ Bali since several centuries, but with some Bugis influences in some areas.
Regards

Yes, i certainly noted that at times there was more talk than words translated so i am sure i was missing parts of this. I was not aware that Empu Saras (Sarah) was supposed to be of Mojopahit origin so thank you for that info.
Certainly once the keris was established in Malay areas it did indeed take its own route of development and developed its own terminology and customs.

Jean · 15th August 2018, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I was not aware that Empu Saras (Sarah) was supposed to be of Mojopahit origin so thank you for that info.

You can find this info after 12 mn and 50 seconds in the first video.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2018, 11:42 PM

Yes green, Malay is recognised as being a simple language, but in my experience, that simplicity only extends to the basic "Pasar Malay", or in my case "Pasar Indonesian". I learnt Indonesian as an adult, and I think it probably took me about 5 years to achieve a level of reasonable competency in Pasar Indonesian. I'm a slow learner, but in my own defence I must add that I found it almost impossible to learn in a classroom situation, and I learnt by writing and during my two and three monthly visits to Jawa & Bali. To move from Pasar Indonesian to the level suitable for official use, or for conversation in polite company, I think it probably took me about 20 years. I will say this:- Indonesian is far more simple than Italian, and infinitely more simple than English.

In fact, the dialect of Malay spoken in South East Sumatra was chosen as the foundation stone of national language, for the soon-to-be nation of Indonesia by the Indonesian Nationalist Movement in 1928. Sukarno as president did not choose Malay as the national language of Indonesia, but since he founded the PNI in 1927, it is likely that he was involved in the choice before he became president.

The choice was a logical one, because low Malay, or Pasar Malay (as opposed to Classical or High Malay) had been the language of trade for a 1000 years or more across much of, if not all, SE Asia, and by some accounts, even further afield. It was the language used to spread Islam and Christianity in Jawa and the rest of the Archipelago.

However, it is important to note that Bahasa Indonesia, ie, Indonesian, is a public language and the only official language, it is not used in the home, it is not used in colloquial exchanges, it is used in news broadcasts, nationally screened TV shows, official exchanges. In my experience, when ordinary people, as distinct from highly educated people, use Indonesian in Jawa, Bali, and Madura, the language that they use bears only a passing resemblance to Indonesian as we hear it in an official or public context. The language that these ordinary people call "Bahasa Indonesia" is so mixed with the other languages that these people speak, that it has become a dialect in its own right.

Relative to the use of the word "warangan", it is as David has already advised, the word "warangan" does appear in 19th century literature relevant to use in Malay. I agree that it is a loan word from Javanese, but once a loan word comes into another language it becomes a part of the lexicon of that language. As for using the test of recognition of a word by a native speaker in order to endorse its place in a language, I regret that we cannot accept that argument. My native language is English, and although I am reasonably proficient in the use of English, there are numerous words that I do not recognise. Just because a word is a part of a technical jargon, that does not exclude it from inclusion in the main body of the language.

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2018, 11:58 PM

In respect of Empu Saras/Sarah.

There seems to be no mention of this person in the accepted documentation of the line of descent of Javanese empus to the time of Kartosuro.

This documentation is:- "Silsilah Turun-temuruning Empu Tanah Jawi".

Possibly Empu Saras/Sarah did come from Mojopahit, but perhaps the name used there was different. For Javanese people names can and do vary on a situational basis.

15th August 2018, 06:10 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant? This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia. the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states) As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

15th August 2018, 08:22 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	This comment is only relevant to the word "warang" or "warangan". The word appears in Wilkinson, compiled prior to 1900, it was a word in common usage in Malay at that time, but Wilkinson gives origin as Javanese. The word appears in Old Javanese and has several meanings, none of which relate to arsenic or realgar. It is actually an interesting word, which possibly deserves further research by historical linguists, the entries in Zoetmulder seem to raise some interesting possibilities:- a relationship to colour?, to illness?, to a keris scabbard (warangka)? It seems entirely possible that the application of the word to keris staining is something that might only have arisen in Modern Javanese, ie, since mid-17th century.

15th August 2018, 01:36 PM	#3
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	Malay is essentially a very simple language. Migrant workers from South India or Nepal for example can pick up the language within 3 months without any formal training course and merely by interacting with their fellow malay co workers. A great majority of malay words are borrowed from other languages. Primarily from sanskrit and later from arabic when the people became muslims and in the modern era a lot of words are taken fro English such as bas (bus) gelas (glass) komputer (computer) etc...It is not inconcievable that warang/warangan has been adopted by the malay keris community since early days but this word is never used in other situations by general population and if you ask any malays who do not delve in keris , it is almost certain that he will not know the word. Having said that, and as an aside, it is to the great credit of Soekarno the late president of Indonesia who decided to use malay as the basis for 'bahasa Indonesia' and adopt it as the national language of Indonesia and bind the disparate people of Indonesia that speak all sorts of languages.

15th August 2018, 11:42 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yes green, Malay is recognised as being a simple language, but in my experience, that simplicity only extends to the basic "Pasar Malay", or in my case "Pasar Indonesian". I learnt Indonesian as an adult, and I think it probably took me about 5 years to achieve a level of reasonable competency in Pasar Indonesian. I'm a slow learner, but in my own defence I must add that I found it almost impossible to learn in a classroom situation, and I learnt by writing and during my two and three monthly visits to Jawa & Bali. To move from Pasar Indonesian to the level suitable for official use, or for conversation in polite company, I think it probably took me about 20 years. I will say this:- Indonesian is far more simple than Italian, and infinitely more simple than English. In fact, the dialect of Malay spoken in South East Sumatra was chosen as the foundation stone of national language, for the soon-to-be nation of Indonesia by the Indonesian Nationalist Movement in 1928. Sukarno as president did not choose Malay as the national language of Indonesia, but since he founded the PNI in 1927, it is likely that he was involved in the choice before he became president. The choice was a logical one, because low Malay, or Pasar Malay (as opposed to Classical or High Malay) had been the language of trade for a 1000 years or more across much of, if not all, SE Asia, and by some accounts, even further afield. It was the language used to spread Islam and Christianity in Jawa and the rest of the Archipelago. However, it is important to note that Bahasa Indonesia, ie, Indonesian, is a public language and the only official language, it is not used in the home, it is not used in colloquial exchanges, it is used in news broadcasts, nationally screened TV shows, official exchanges. In my experience, when ordinary people, as distinct from highly educated people, use Indonesian in Jawa, Bali, and Madura, the language that they use bears only a passing resemblance to Indonesian as we hear it in an official or public context. The language that these ordinary people call "Bahasa Indonesia" is so mixed with the other languages that these people speak, that it has become a dialect in its own right. Relative to the use of the word "warangan", it is as David has already advised, the word "warangan" does appear in 19th century literature relevant to use in Malay. I agree that it is a loan word from Javanese, but once a loan word comes into another language it becomes a part of the lexicon of that language. As for using the test of recognition of a word by a native speaker in order to endorse its place in a language, I regret that we cannot accept that argument. My native language is English, and although I am reasonably proficient in the use of English, there are numerous words that I do not recognise. Just because a word is a part of a technical jargon, that does not exclude it from inclusion in the main body of the language.

15th August 2018, 11:58 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	In respect of Empu Saras/Sarah. There seems to be no mention of this person in the accepted documentation of the line of descent of Javanese empus to the time of Kartosuro. This documentation is:- "Silsilah Turun-temuruning Empu Tanah Jawi". Possibly Empu Saras/Sarah did come from Mojopahit, but perhaps the name used there was different. For Javanese people names can and do vary on a situational basis.