Keris Videos (Malay Peninsula)

David · 14th August 2018, 02:56 PM

As i stated Alan, i only watched a little bit into each of these to determine the direction of the lectures so i did not see anything offensive. I'll watch them completely through today and see if i need to delete anything.
But coming from the Peninsula perspective i would not be surprised if there is information in here that runs against the grain of common Javanese keris understanding.

David · 14th August 2018, 03:43 PM

OK Alan, i made my way all the way through. I can certainly see how aspects of this might come across as annoying to Javanese keris enthusiasts since this entire lecture seems to disregard the Javanese origins of the keris in general and speaks of it purely from a Malay perspective. We have often had conversations about belief as it applies to the keris and i think that without a doubt their are many keris enthusiasts who would accept this lecture word for word. For me, and no doubt yourself, there is much to debate in this lecture, but it seems important to me that we present all cultural perspectives of the keris and this is most certainly one of them.

Jean · 14th August 2018, 09:17 PM

I watched the entire videos and agree that there are some aspects which are questionable like the origin of the kris, blade poisoning, etc. but I enjoyed the information about the various types of Malay krisses and hits especially, which cannot be found easily in any book written in English language except Gardner (but incomplete). I also noticed that the lecturer mentions the warangan treatment of the blades with arsenic, contrary to some statements made earlier in the Forum.
Regards

Anthony G. · 15th August 2018, 02:08 AM

If anyone asks me, my stand and perception is that I always felt that keris is originated from Indonesia and spread to other regions in SEAsia etc.

David · 15th August 2018, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

If anyone asks me, my stand and perception is that I always felt that keris is originated from Indonesia and spread to other regions in SEAsia etc.

Anthony, i believe it is generally accepted, even to many Malay keris collectors, that the origin of the keris is not just Indonesia, but specifically Jawa. This gentleman apparently holds a minority opinion.

Green · 15th August 2018, 06:10 AM

I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?

This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia.

the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states)

As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2018, 08:22 AM

This comment is only relevant to the word "warang" or "warangan".

The word appears in Wilkinson, compiled prior to 1900, it was a word in common usage in Malay at that time, but Wilkinson gives origin as Javanese.

The word appears in Old Javanese and has several meanings, none of which relate to arsenic or realgar.

It is actually an interesting word, which possibly deserves further research by historical linguists, the entries in Zoetmulder seem to raise some interesting possibilities:- a relationship to colour?, to illness?, to a keris scabbard (warangka)?

It seems entirely possible that the application of the word to keris staining is something that might only have arisen in Modern Javanese, ie, since mid-17th century.

David · 15th August 2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?

This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia.

the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states)

As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

I suppose it might be difficult to definitely assess what the lecturer's deeper thoughts on keris origin are simply by watching these videos. I do agree with you Green that the vast majority of keris collectors across the board tend to agree that Jawa is the origin of the keris. However, after watching this entire presentation i find hard to believe that there was not some purposeful intention it present these basic lessons about Malay keris completely devoid of any reference whatsoever to Javanese origins. Does the good Professor actually believe the keris originated in Malaysia? I think we would have to ask him to know for sure. But it does seem that he would like people to believe that is so.
However, with all information about the keris i think it is important not to allow what we might perceive as misinformation color the entire body of information we are viewing. I would recommend a complete viewing before forming any opinions on the over all value of the lecture. Again, i feel a lot of this was very basic information, but from a perspective i do not generally study, so i found valuable.
Regarding warangan in Malay keris culture, we did have this discussion before and it does seem to me that some very strong evidence was presented there that warangan was known and applied to Malay keris at least as early as 1839 if we believe the account written by Newbold at that time in "Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.:
"Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.

"How to damask Krises. - Place on the blade a mixture of boiled rice, sulphur, and salt beat together, first taking the precaution to cover the edges of the weapon with a thin coat of virgin wax. After this has remained on seven days, the damask will have risen on surface; take the composition off, and immerse the blade in the water of a young cocoa-nut, or the juice of a pine-apple, for seven days longer, and wash it well with the juice of a sour lemon. After the rust has been cleared away, rub it with warangan (arsenic) dissolved in lime juice; wash it well with spring water; dry, and anoint it with a cocoa-nut oil."

Other early examples pointing to this knowledge and use were also listed in a thread we had not to long ago. So while we can certainly see this word and process as something that is far more prevalent in Jawa, Bali, Madura and parts of Sumatra, it was certainly not unknown in parts of the Malay Peninsula.

David · 15th August 2018, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

I also noticed that the lecturer mentions the warangan treatment of the blades with arsenic, contrary to some statements made earlier in the Forum.

I noted that as well Jean and thought about our discussion not too long ago about whether or not warangan was a known practice in Malay keris culture.

14th August 2018, 03:43 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	OK Alan, i made my way all the way through. I can certainly see how aspects of this might come across as annoying to Javanese keris enthusiasts since this entire lecture seems to disregard the Javanese origins of the keris in general and speaks of it purely from a Malay perspective. We have often had conversations about belief as it applies to the keris and i think that without a doubt their are many keris enthusiasts who would accept this lecture word for word. For me, and no doubt yourself, there is much to debate in this lecture, but it seems important to me that we present all cultural perspectives of the keris and this is most certainly one of them. Last edited by David; 14th August 2018 at 04:59 PM.

14th August 2018, 02:56 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	As i stated Alan, i only watched a little bit into each of these to determine the direction of the lectures so i did not see anything offensive. I'll watch them completely through today and see if i need to delete anything. But coming from the Peninsula perspective i would not be surprised if there is information in here that runs against the grain of common Javanese keris understanding.

14th August 2018, 09:17 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I watched the entire videos and agree that there are some aspects which are questionable like the origin of the kris, blade poisoning, etc. but I enjoyed the information about the various types of Malay krisses and hits especially, which cannot be found easily in any book written in English language except Gardner (but incomplete). I also noticed that the lecturer mentions the warangan treatment of the blades with arsenic, contrary to some statements made earlier in the Forum. Regards

15th August 2018, 02:08 AM	#4
Anthony G. Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 470	If anyone asks me, my stand and perception is that I always felt that keris is originated from Indonesia and spread to other regions in SEAsia etc.

15th August 2018, 06:10 AM	#6
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant? This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia. the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states) As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

15th August 2018, 08:22 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	This comment is only relevant to the word "warang" or "warangan". The word appears in Wilkinson, compiled prior to 1900, it was a word in common usage in Malay at that time, but Wilkinson gives origin as Javanese. The word appears in Old Javanese and has several meanings, none of which relate to arsenic or realgar. It is actually an interesting word, which possibly deserves further research by historical linguists, the entries in Zoetmulder seem to raise some interesting possibilities:- a relationship to colour?, to illness?, to a keris scabbard (warangka)? It seems entirely possible that the application of the word to keris staining is something that might only have arisen in Modern Javanese, ie, since mid-17th century.