Origin of this knife?

Marc · 5th April 2006, 10:14 AM

I'm sorry to disagree, but the first and last knives in Fernando's picture are not "facones". Yes, I know that what I'm saying is contrary to a fairly established belief, but it's about these things that usually pays handsomely to listen to the natives. Although in this case the "natives" are Argentinians, so listening to them may be a bit... tiresome... (

joking, joking, just joking...)

It's one of those anthropological things that defy clear categorization and that are subjected to some local variations, but as a general trend, these little (or not so little) single-edged knives with the off-centred handle, integral bolster and frequently richly decorated with embossed silver and even gold, are in fact called cuchillos criollos ("Criollo" knives), found in the south-western part of South America (Argentina, Uruguay...), and still in production (and use) today.
See:

An undecorated example:

and, although the pic is smaller, here's one of the big exemplars:

I don't know the exact details, but I do know that one may recognize regional variations of those through morphological features of the knife and its decorations, like the shape of the drag or the button/clip.

On the other hand, a facón is an unmistakable fighting weapon, much bigger, sometimes made from a cut-down or broken sword blade, and, as such, frequently double-edged. the hilt is usually centred and they normally (although not always) feature a handguard.
See:

"A facón? This is not a facón... THIS is a facón!"

It is also worth mentioning that this terminology is still in use today.

The credit goes to that Argentinian who managed to make all this information past my thick skull..

Chris Evans · 5th April 2006, 11:34 AM

Hi,

Marc, I think that you are absolutely right.

There is much misapplication of the terms facon, puñal, cuchillo cuchilla and daga (dagger), but the Argentinean knife expert Abel Domenech does make the point that for a knife to qualify for the nomenclature of facon, it must have a cross guard. He further argues that the facon is a sub-species of the dagger family, albeit of single edge, often sporting a false edge.

To summarize:

Cuchillo: A narrow single edged knife, that resembles a butcher's or kitchen knife

Cuchilla: a broad bladed variant of the cuchillo

Daga (dagger): Any one of the possible variations of the straight double edged European bladed knife.

Puñal (Poniard): A loose term indiscriminately applied in Sth America to all kinds of shorter knves. The root word is in Spanish "puño", that is fist, so a puñal is a knife that is intended to be held in the "ice pick"grip, in the clenched fist, so as to deliver a powerful downward stab. It finds correspondence with the pogniard.

Facon: The bade of legends. A large variant of the dagger, but with a single edge and always fitted with a cross guard. Facons measured up to 60cm blade length and were invariably made from discarded swords or bayonets.

Caronera: A very large facon, at times of sword length, carried under the saddle and usually lacking a handguard. Or, to put it differently, a rehilted sword sans its handguard.

I should add that facons (and caroneras) were more in use before the 19th century than afterwards and that real halcyon days of the gauchos were before 1800. Their mystique of the facon bearing gaucho was such that right up to the present day any knife worn on the small of the back tends to be called a facon. Historically, facons and caroneras were made from cut-down sword and bayonet blades, whereas cuhillos and cuchillas were re-hilted butcher's blades, usually imported from Europe, the most famous brand being Arbolitio, a trade name owned by Boker. In the closing years of the 19th century, Sth American manufacturers started to make blades, but up to that date their cutlers largely confined themselves to the re-hilting and ornamentation of sundry imported blades.

The silver hilted and sheated knives that these days we associate with gauchos, were in fact luxury items that could only be afforded by wealthy landowners or their overseers. The common gaucho, by the 19th century was reduced to an impoverished "peon", a mere agricultural laborer, and had to contend himself with far far less lavish cutting implements.

In the 20th century gaucho knives in all kinds and sizes were mass produced around imported butcher blades and their sheaths and hilts made from German Silver (Spanish: Alpaca). For most part these are items sold to tourists, or worn as dress items on festive occasions.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 5th April 2006, 09:11 PM

Blade lengths are:
Top one - 18 centimeters
Center one - 20,5 centimetrs.
I wonder what the hilt is made with.
Bottom one - 13,5 centimeters ... quite small.

Chris Evans · 6th April 2006, 02:44 AM

Hi,

In Sth America, smaller cuchillos and cuchillas, that is narrow and broad bladed knives are known as "verijeros", sometimes spelled as "verigeros". Now, "verije" in Spanish means the groin/genital area and why these knives are known as literally "groiners" is less than entirely clear, but conventional wisdom has it that they acquired the name from the manner in which they are carried; Verijeros are usually tucked into the belt on the LHS and in between the hip and the belly button, pointing towards the groin.

The maxium size for a verijero is limited by the comfort that it can be carried in the above mentioned position. This consideration usually restricts them to a blade length of less than 6". Longer knives having to be carried across the small of the back. Verijeros are used for those tasks that require a small blade and are considered tools rather than weapons.

Fernando's gaucho kife with the 18cm blade is a little too big for a verijero and too small to be carried in the small of the back, so it would be simply known as a cuchillo and by a few as an oversized verijero. Knives of this size were usually tucked into the belt near the hip, though at times also at the small of the back.

The blade and cross guard, of the second is typical of facons, albeit in this instance very much undersized and probably made to serve as a souvenir. The dimensions of the third firmly makes it a verijero, although its handle is not that of typical South American knives.

However we have to keep in mind that contrary to modern perceptions, apart from blade commonalities, there was no universal typology in handles until the 20th century because the Sth American nations lacked a manufacturing base up to that time, most tools, weapons and other implement having to be imported from Europe. As a result, all kinds of knives found their way into the hands of the Gauchos, which included knives fashioned from broken sheep shears. The general style that nowadays is associated with gaucho knives emerged from a desire to conform with a national cultural sereotype, that of a mythical gaucho, and is based on what a wealthy "campesino" (man of the land) would have owned in the second half of the 19th century and worn only on festive occasions.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Evans · 7th April 2006, 03:35 AM

Hi,

A Correction:

In my haste I forgot to mention that according to Argentinean authorities a "puñal" is a cuchillo with a substantial false edge, which in many cases is left blunt - As with the term "facon", this nomenclature is also used fairly loosely.

Also, According to the Argentinean expert Abel Domenech, and confirmed by my own observations, is the disproportionate emphasis placed on the decoration of those very ornate criollo knives, whilst in too many cases the blade's finish and general quality is quite basic or even disappointing. Domenech concludes that for the owners of these knives appearance was considerably more important than function. As an aside, I made the same observation about a good many antique Spanish navajas found in collections.

Cheers
Chris

Brezolin · 2nd September 2011, 04:15 AM

Hello Guys!
I'm reviving this topic to add new information!

This knife is a knife with certainty Brazilian. Probably this is a “Mineira” knife. This type of knives (Mineira) were produced starting in the end century XVIII the state of Minas Gerais, Brazil.
Present on the cable, sheath and ricasso pretty loud in silver. The grooves and details on the blade are not rare, and appear in various knives.
This model influenced the type of “faca de ponta”, another Brazilian model.

This link has extensive information on Brasilian Knives...
http://www.colecaoorsini.com.br/
But in the Portuguese language.

Best regards

Brezolin

PS: Sorry for my english, I'm using Google translator.

Atlantia · 2nd September 2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brezolin

Hello Guys!
I'm reviving this topic to add new information!

This knife is a knife with certainty Brazilian. Probably this is a “Mineira” knife. This type of knives (Mineira) were produced starting in the end century XVIII the state of Minas Gerais, Brazil.
Present on the cable, sheath and ricasso pretty loud in silver. The grooves and details on the blade are not rare, and appear in various knives.
This model influenced the type of “faca de ponta”, another Brazilian model.

This link has extensive information on Brasilian Knives...
http://www.colecaoorsini.com.br/
But in the Portuguese language.

Best regards

Brezolin

PS: Sorry for my english, I'm using Google translator.

Hi Brezolin,

Your English translation is excellent, do not worry.
Thank you for the information and welcome to the forums.
I assumed that these small Brazilian knives were still generically known simply as 'Faca De Ponta', so it's very interesting to hear that these small ones are “Mineira”.
Could you have a look at this thread please:
Faca de ponta
I would be greatful is you could review my 'findings' into the below examples and make any comments or corrections?

Regards
Gene

2nd September 2011, 04:15 AM	#6
Brezolin Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: São Borja, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil Posts: 3	Reactivating topic! Hello Guys! I'm reviving this topic to add new information! This knife is a knife with certainty Brazilian. Probably this is a “Mineira” knife. This type of knives (Mineira) were produced starting in the end century XVIII the state of Minas Gerais, Brazil. Present on the cable, sheath and ricasso pretty loud in silver. The grooves and details on the blade are not rare, and appear in various knives. This model influenced the type of “faca de ponta”, another Brazilian model. This link has extensive information on Brasilian Knives... http://www.colecaoorsini.com.br/ But in the Portuguese language. Best regards Brezolin PS: Sorry for my english, I'm using Google translator.

5th April 2006, 10:14 AM	#1
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I'm sorry to disagree, but the first and last knives in Fernando's picture are not "facones". Yes, I know that what I'm saying is contrary to a fairly established belief, but it's about these things that usually pays handsomely to listen to the natives. Although in this case the "natives" are Argentinians, so listening to them may be a bit... tiresome... ( joking, joking, just joking...) It's one of those anthropological things that defy clear categorization and that are subjected to some local variations, but as a general trend, these little (or not so little) single-edged knives with the off-centred handle, integral bolster and frequently richly decorated with embossed silver and even gold, are in fact called cuchillos criollos ("Criollo" knives), found in the south-western part of South America (Argentina, Uruguay...), and still in production (and use) today. See: An undecorated example: and, although the pic is smaller, here's one of the big exemplars: I don't know the exact details, but I do know that one may recognize regional variations of those through morphological features of the knife and its decorations, like the shape of the drag or the button/clip. On the other hand, a facón is an unmistakable fighting weapon, much bigger, sometimes made from a cut-down or broken sword blade, and, as such, frequently double-edged. the hilt is usually centred and they normally (although not always) feature a handguard. See: "A facón? This is not a facón... THIS is a facón!" It is also worth mentioning that this terminology is still in use today. The credit goes to that Argentinian who managed to make all this information past my thick skull..

5th April 2006, 11:34 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi, Marc, I think that you are absolutely right. There is much misapplication of the terms facon, puñal, cuchillo cuchilla and daga (dagger), but the Argentinean knife expert Abel Domenech does make the point that for a knife to qualify for the nomenclature of facon, it must have a cross guard. He further argues that the facon is a sub-species of the dagger family, albeit of single edge, often sporting a false edge. To summarize: Cuchillo: A narrow single edged knife, that resembles a butcher's or kitchen knife Cuchilla: a broad bladed variant of the cuchillo Daga (dagger): Any one of the possible variations of the straight double edged European bladed knife. Puñal (Poniard): A loose term indiscriminately applied in Sth America to all kinds of shorter knves. The root word is in Spanish "puño", that is fist, so a puñal is a knife that is intended to be held in the "ice pick"grip, in the clenched fist, so as to deliver a powerful downward stab. It finds correspondence with the pogniard. Facon: The bade of legends. A large variant of the dagger, but with a single edge and always fitted with a cross guard. Facons measured up to 60cm blade length and were invariably made from discarded swords or bayonets. Caronera: A very large facon, at times of sword length, carried under the saddle and usually lacking a handguard. Or, to put it differently, a rehilted sword sans its handguard. I should add that facons (and caroneras) were more in use before the 19th century than afterwards and that real halcyon days of the gauchos were before 1800. Their mystique of the facon bearing gaucho was such that right up to the present day any knife worn on the small of the back tends to be called a facon. Historically, facons and caroneras were made from cut-down sword and bayonet blades, whereas cuhillos and cuchillas were re-hilted butcher's blades, usually imported from Europe, the most famous brand being Arbolitio, a trade name owned by Boker. In the closing years of the 19th century, Sth American manufacturers started to make blades, but up to that date their cutlers largely confined themselves to the re-hilting and ornamentation of sundry imported blades. The silver hilted and sheated knives that these days we associate with gauchos, were in fact luxury items that could only be afforded by wealthy landowners or their overseers. The common gaucho, by the 19th century was reduced to an impoverished "peon", a mere agricultural laborer, and had to contend himself with far far less lavish cutting implements. In the 20th century gaucho knives in all kinds and sizes were mass produced around imported butcher blades and their sheaths and hilts made from German Silver (Spanish: Alpaca). For most part these are items sold to tourists, or worn as dress items on festive occasions. Cheers Chris

5th April 2006, 09:11 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Blade lengths are: Top one - 18 centimeters Center one - 20,5 centimetrs. I wonder what the hilt is made with. Bottom one - 13,5 centimeters ... quite small.

6th April 2006, 02:44 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi, In Sth America, smaller cuchillos and cuchillas, that is narrow and broad bladed knives are known as "verijeros", sometimes spelled as "verigeros". Now, "verije" in Spanish means the groin/genital area and why these knives are known as literally "groiners" is less than entirely clear, but conventional wisdom has it that they acquired the name from the manner in which they are carried; Verijeros are usually tucked into the belt on the LHS and in between the hip and the belly button, pointing towards the groin. The maxium size for a verijero is limited by the comfort that it can be carried in the above mentioned position. This consideration usually restricts them to a blade length of less than 6". Longer knives having to be carried across the small of the back. Verijeros are used for those tasks that require a small blade and are considered tools rather than weapons. Fernando's gaucho kife with the 18cm blade is a little too big for a verijero and too small to be carried in the small of the back, so it would be simply known as a cuchillo and by a few as an oversized verijero. Knives of this size were usually tucked into the belt near the hip, though at times also at the small of the back. The blade and cross guard, of the second is typical of facons, albeit in this instance very much undersized and probably made to serve as a souvenir. The dimensions of the third firmly makes it a verijero, although its handle is not that of typical South American knives. However we have to keep in mind that contrary to modern perceptions, apart from blade commonalities, there was no universal typology in handles until the 20th century because the Sth American nations lacked a manufacturing base up to that time, most tools, weapons and other implement having to be imported from Europe. As a result, all kinds of knives found their way into the hands of the Gauchos, which included knives fashioned from broken sheep shears. The general style that nowadays is associated with gaucho knives emerged from a desire to conform with a national cultural sereotype, that of a mythical gaucho, and is based on what a wealthy "campesino" (man of the land) would have owned in the second half of the 19th century and worn only on festive occasions. Cheers Chris

7th April 2006, 03:35 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi, A Correction: In my haste I forgot to mention that according to Argentinean authorities a "puñal" is a cuchillo with a substantial false edge, which in many cases is left blunt - As with the term "facon", this nomenclature is also used fairly loosely. Also, According to the Argentinean expert Abel Domenech, and confirmed by my own observations, is the disproportionate emphasis placed on the decoration of those very ornate criollo knives, whilst in too many cases the blade's finish and general quality is quite basic or even disappointing. Domenech concludes that for the owners of these knives appearance was considerably more important than function. As an aside, I made the same observation about a good many antique Spanish navajas found in collections. Cheers Chris