2018 ethnographic weapon

thomas hauschild · 30th July 2018, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for outlining your point of view Thomas.

In respect of forge work, I have always found that the use of coke and charcoal is far more satisfying than the use of a gas forge. Welding in a gas forge is not difficult, welding in coke or charcoal is a whole other world, and by using coke or charcoal, we position ourselves very close to the smiths of the past, even if we do use electric blowers.

I have used bellows instead of an electric blower, and what I found was that the fire (it was teak charcoal) was much more easily controlled with the bellows than with the electric blower. I've used a farriers hand-blown forge also, WWI vintage, and although for a number of reasons I find it fairly difficult to use, it also gives very good fire control.

I learnt to weld when the only fuel available to the smith I learnt from was coal, this meant that I needed to coke the coal before I could consider welding. Although I have found river sand to be a good flux for iron or mild steel, I have not found it satisfactory for welds involving high carbon steel, in a coke fire anhydrous borax is a satisfactory flux, but often no flux at all is necessary, especially in a teak charcoal fire. Use of a flux is very often the base cause of weld flaw.

I do appreciate your response to my question, Thomas, and I thank you for it, but the main thrust of my curiosity was not so much the forge work, which really is pretty simple and straight forward once the basics are understood, but rather, your approach to the bench work. I am curious to know if you use similar tools and techniques to the blade smiths of olden times for the actual making of the blade, rather than the making of the forging from which the blade will emerge.

A.G.

Yes I agree absolutly to 100 % . This is the way that I realy like to go ( in the future) Life is a compromise. The normal business as a production manager need more than 50 h a week, the neighboors say nothing when I will grind and forge on saturday( but they will not like the smoke of a coal fire ) Here in this area there are a lot of friends making iron in the 100 % traditional way. The Solingen museum is nearby and I have to less time to take part of all these kind of actions. Maybe in a decade when retirement comes by. At the moment I‘m happy with any piece that I finish and that piece above needed some month to finish. There were a lot things going to my mind while taking antique pieces in my hand and trying to do something like this ( unable to make it at the end ) I just want to share my grown respect for the former craftmen.

Best Thomas

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2018, 10:53 PM

Thank you for your response Thomas.

Yes, coal smoke can be something that attracts a lot of attention, however smoke from coke is really only noticeable in the start-up phase, and smoke from charcoal is no more obtrusive than smoke from a BBQ.

Certainly a hammer on an anvil does make some noise, but in a normal residential environment it is really no more than might be expected from the usual weekend activity of home maintenance, certainly not something for anybody to get upset about. Of course, any type of heavy power hammer, even an Oliver, is out of the question in a residential setting.

Grinding can be very noisy, as can any machine process, but use of other techniques can reduce noise considerably, and in my experience are not noticeably slower for finely crafted work. For example, if you use an angle grinder to remove fire scale, the softer heart of the forging is exposed and it is easy to file, particularly so if the forging has been annealed prior to beginning the bench work.

Files, scrapers, cold chisels, and the use of rubbing sticks, rather than machine processes can reduce noise to almost nothing, and the use of these techniques automatically assumes the nature of a form of active meditation.

Try using the old way of doing things Thomas, it is far more satisfying than using electricity.

Yes, I know I have just recommended use of an angle grinder, and angle grinders use electricity, however it takes only a few minutes to remove fire scale from a forging, and the processing following removal of the scale is not something that can be heard outside the workshop. Fire scale can be removed with a file, but it is a lengthy process and wears out the file.

As to time taken to produce historically accurate items, the longest time I ever spent on a blade --- note, "BLADE" not a complete knife --- was 49 man-days, +/- 400 man-hours. Time is totally irrelevant when one is attempting to achieve perfection.

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2018, 11:13 PM

Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact.

Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past.

I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact.

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

David · 31st July 2018, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

Alan, i don't believe anyone has even remotely suggested banishment to oblivion.

I've been a maker all my life. I'll have to upload some shots of the railroad spike knife and axe i forged. They don't have anywhere near the fine craft of Thomas' beautiful chopper here. But they do serve realtime ritual purpose and cultural significance.

Robert · 31st July 2018, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact.

Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past.

I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact.

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

Thank you for putting into words so precisely what I have been trying without success to do all day.

Best,
Robert

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2018, 09:25 AM

Thank you for your reassurances David, and although much appreciated, I am certain they are unnecessary. Just as nobody in this thread has recommended that Thomas be banished, I also did not suggest that banishment was being considered by anybody, however if this current thread were to be moved from the Ethnographic Weapons Forum, into the Ethnographic Miscellanea Forum I do feel that such action could result in Thomas' contribution to our mutual interest being forgotten, and oblivion is the state of having been forgotten.

The fact that you, yourself, have had experience in the craft of metal working is itself evidence of the varied ethnicity of North American culture. When we involve ourselves in ethnographic studies, we are indulging in a very broad based discipline, and where weaponry is an element of that ethnographic study, it becomes extremely difficult to define a boundary.

Thomas' work is certainly not old, it is not replication of weaponry from an identifiable culture, but it is extremely difficult to argue that it does not fit into the parameters of ethnographic study.

fernando · 31st July 2018, 03:50 PM

Perhaps this is a case of perspectives, so that the strict acceptation of the Ethnography appears to refer the descriptive study of facts of civilization of the diverse peoples and ethnicities. Everything runs harmoniously on a tacit basis or consensus, until something apparently off scope runs into the club. Scope ... would be precisely the gauge that defines a frontier within which an implement fits into accepted discussion.
It is pertinent to say that Thomas piece doesn't fit in the Miscellania forum, but because its scope comprehending "ethnographic artifacts other than arms and armor" still raises one or another doubt in this case.
Would this be an European item, doubts would not arise, as the scope of such forum makes it clear that replicas or modern items are better dealt in more adequate venues.
So reputing any individual modern creation, providing that it has a blade, as an ethnographic weapon, may be taken by some as a rather subjective interpretation; one that can be validated or rejected by the respective forum moderators, of course. This not meaning that eventual opinions that this is not an ethnographic artifact are not valid, hence risking the whipping post.
And of course this is not about to encourage or discourage those who create whatever they intend; is more about something being or not in the adequate territory.
Mind you, all just impressions of an ignaro

.

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2018, 11:39 PM

Who can disagree with your thoughtful approach to this matter, Fernando?

Not I, that is certain.

However, that said , I do have a couple comments.

This Forum is designated as a "General forum for discussion of all ethnographic edged weapons and related topics".

The ethnographic method of cultural investigation can be thought of as an empirical hands-on approach, as distinct from the purely theoretical method that under-pins both sociology and anthropology, in fact in the purest form of ethnographic examination of a culture the researcher enters the culture and becomes a part of it. I adopted this approach to the investigation of my own special field of study more than 30 years ago, after I found that the existing literature provided neither adequate, nor accurate information in respect of my needs.

In the matter under discussion we seem to considering at least three elements. Firstly we have a craftsman working in Europe, we then have the craftsman working in a form that takes inspiration from Asia, and finally we have that craftsman using current era technology in a craft that has existed in both Europe and Asia for in excess of 2000 years.

Considered objectively we can now understand that in the work of Thomas Hauschild we are seeing the interaction of one or more Asian cultures/societies on the thought processes of a European craftsman working in the current era, and providing an interpretation of Asian material culture by use of technology and techniques that are embedded in a sub-culture that is common to both Europe and Asia.

The ethnographic method of enquiry investigates cultural norms and variations in a culture, ideally, in a living culture, but the historical approach can also be adopted where this is necessary.

In my opinion, Thomas Hauschild and his work do provide a superb example of the interaction of cultural influence across time.

Ethnographic enquiry is about understanding cultures and societies in order to better understand the anthropology and sociology of those cultures and societies. It is an inclusive method, not an exclusive method.

In consideration of Thomas' we work have material that permits not only the obvious possibility of analysis of the physical object that Thomas produced, but a moment's thought will surely illuminate the multiple probabilities in the past where ideas from one society/culture penetrated an alien society/culture and sometimes gave rise to variation within that receiving society/culture. Much of this variation has concerned weaponry.

To my mind, this is ethnology at its core, and my understanding is that this Forum exists for the purpose of discussion of weaponry and related topics from an ethnographic perspective.

The lessons to be learned from Thomas' work go far beyond the object he has presented.

31st July 2018, 03:50 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Defending the dame ! Perhaps this is a case of perspectives, so that the strict acceptation of the Ethnography appears to refer the descriptive study of facts of civilization of the diverse peoples and ethnicities. Everything runs harmoniously on a tacit basis or consensus, until something apparently off scope runs into the club. Scope ... would be precisely the gauge that defines a frontier within which an implement fits into accepted discussion. It is pertinent to say that Thomas piece doesn't fit in the Miscellania forum, but because its scope comprehending "ethnographic artifacts other than arms and armor" still raises one or another doubt in this case. Would this be an European item, doubts would not arise, as the scope of such forum makes it clear that replicas or modern items are better dealt in more adequate venues. So reputing any individual modern creation, providing that it has a blade, as an ethnographic weapon, may be taken by some as a rather subjective interpretation; one that can be validated or rejected by the respective forum moderators, of course. This not meaning that eventual opinions that this is not an ethnographic artifact are not valid, hence risking the whipping post. And of course this is not about to encourage or discourage those who create whatever they intend; is more about something being or not in the adequate territory. Mind you, all just impressions of an ignaro .

30th July 2018, 10:53 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Thank you for your response Thomas. Yes, coal smoke can be something that attracts a lot of attention, however smoke from coke is really only noticeable in the start-up phase, and smoke from charcoal is no more obtrusive than smoke from a BBQ. Certainly a hammer on an anvil does make some noise, but in a normal residential environment it is really no more than might be expected from the usual weekend activity of home maintenance, certainly not something for anybody to get upset about. Of course, any type of heavy power hammer, even an Oliver, is out of the question in a residential setting. Grinding can be very noisy, as can any machine process, but use of other techniques can reduce noise considerably, and in my experience are not noticeably slower for finely crafted work. For example, if you use an angle grinder to remove fire scale, the softer heart of the forging is exposed and it is easy to file, particularly so if the forging has been annealed prior to beginning the bench work. Files, scrapers, cold chisels, and the use of rubbing sticks, rather than machine processes can reduce noise to almost nothing, and the use of these techniques automatically assumes the nature of a form of active meditation. Try using the old way of doing things Thomas, it is far more satisfying than using electricity. Yes, I know I have just recommended use of an angle grinder, and angle grinders use electricity, however it takes only a few minutes to remove fire scale from a forging, and the processing following removal of the scale is not something that can be heard outside the workshop. Fire scale can be removed with a file, but it is a lengthy process and wears out the file. As to time taken to produce historically accurate items, the longest time I ever spent on a blade --- note, "BLADE" not a complete knife --- was 49 man-days, +/- 400 man-hours. Time is totally irrelevant when one is attempting to achieve perfection.

30th July 2018, 11:13 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact. Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past. I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact. My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

31st July 2018, 09:25 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Thank you for your reassurances David, and although much appreciated, I am certain they are unnecessary. Just as nobody in this thread has recommended that Thomas be banished, I also did not suggest that banishment was being considered by anybody, however if this current thread were to be moved from the Ethnographic Weapons Forum, into the Ethnographic Miscellanea Forum I do feel that such action could result in Thomas' contribution to our mutual interest being forgotten, and oblivion is the state of having been forgotten. The fact that you, yourself, have had experience in the craft of metal working is itself evidence of the varied ethnicity of North American culture. When we involve ourselves in ethnographic studies, we are indulging in a very broad based discipline, and where weaponry is an element of that ethnographic study, it becomes extremely difficult to define a boundary. Thomas' work is certainly not old, it is not replication of weaponry from an identifiable culture, but it is extremely difficult to argue that it does not fit into the parameters of ethnographic study.

31st July 2018, 11:39 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Who can disagree with your thoughtful approach to this matter, Fernando? Not I, that is certain. However, that said , I do have a couple comments. This Forum is designated as a "General forum for discussion of all ethnographic edged weapons and related topics". The ethnographic method of cultural investigation can be thought of as an empirical hands-on approach, as distinct from the purely theoretical method that under-pins both sociology and anthropology, in fact in the purest form of ethnographic examination of a culture the researcher enters the culture and becomes a part of it. I adopted this approach to the investigation of my own special field of study more than 30 years ago, after I found that the existing literature provided neither adequate, nor accurate information in respect of my needs. In the matter under discussion we seem to considering at least three elements. Firstly we have a craftsman working in Europe, we then have the craftsman working in a form that takes inspiration from Asia, and finally we have that craftsman using current era technology in a craft that has existed in both Europe and Asia for in excess of 2000 years. Considered objectively we can now understand that in the work of Thomas Hauschild we are seeing the interaction of one or more Asian cultures/societies on the thought processes of a European craftsman working in the current era, and providing an interpretation of Asian material culture by use of technology and techniques that are embedded in a sub-culture that is common to both Europe and Asia. The ethnographic method of enquiry investigates cultural norms and variations in a culture, ideally, in a living culture, but the historical approach can also be adopted where this is necessary. In my opinion, Thomas Hauschild and his work do provide a superb example of the interaction of cultural influence across time. Ethnographic enquiry is about understanding cultures and societies in order to better understand the anthropology and sociology of those cultures and societies. It is an inclusive method, not an exclusive method. In consideration of Thomas' we work have material that permits not only the obvious possibility of analysis of the physical object that Thomas produced, but a moment's thought will surely illuminate the multiple probabilities in the past where ideas from one society/culture penetrated an alien society/culture and sometimes gave rise to variation within that receiving society/culture. Much of this variation has concerned weaponry. To my mind, this is ethnology at its core, and my understanding is that this Forum exists for the purpose of discussion of weaponry and related topics from an ethnographic perspective. The lessons to be learned from Thomas' work go far beyond the object he has presented.