Puukko Question

Rick · 2nd July 2018, 05:21 PM

My impression also, but A.G. would be one in the know about that end of things.
Truly a anomalous puuko.

We do see figural ivory Dutch sword handles carved in the Far East...

drac2k · 2nd July 2018, 07:20 PM

Kronckew,I must be having an "off-day," as well as I thought your post was rather humorous;thanks for the smile !

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2018, 11:53 PM

Thank you for your responses gentlemen.

I have maintained an interest in Nordic knives, especially puukko-style knives, for many years, I built a reasonably large collection of them, until I decided that they were just one more distraction from my work with the keris, so I sold off most of them and held on to only a few. In fact, when I was doing custom knife work I even made a few damascus blade puukkos.

This knife that I have asked the question on is most definitely not associated in any way with Jawa or Bali. The silver work is European, not SE Asian, the motifs are European, the style is not SE Asian. This much I can be definite about.

This is an old knife, my estimate is second half, 19th century. The name "Emil Pay" is engraved into a scabbard escutcheon and on the ferrule, I assume it is the original owner rather than the silversmith.

The blade was made by the Gallus workshop, Gallus was a Norwegian maker, it is believed that Gallus blades were sometimes hilted by a well known 19th century Norwegian carver named Bogarson. There is a long tradition of wood carving in Scandinavian countries, many of the puukkos that I sold on to other collectors had very well carved handles.

The identity of the hilt figure is my only question in respect of this knife, of course, all comments are welcome, but all I really need to know is the identity of the hilt figure.

This figure has arms and legs and is in a kneeling position, the arms and hands are clear, the feet can be seen at the rear base. The figure has two tongues, one emerging from each side of its mouth, each of those tongues appears to be forked. Marius has suggested Jormungandr, and this may well be intended to be a humanised, or anthromorphic depiction of Jormungandr, but because Jormungandr is normally depicted and thought of as a serpent, this can only be a hypothetical identification. In any case, although Jormungandr has a forked tongue, it is a single tongue, not two tongues. A fang at either side, back of the mouth, indicates demonic character.

Kronckew suggests that rather than two tongues we may be looking at dragon fire, this is certainly possible.

So gentlemen, does anybody have any suggestions as to identity of the hilt figure?

Hotspur · 3rd July 2018, 09:05 PM

Perhaps disgorging, rather than a split tongue. Grendel, I would think, a good choice to describe the beast (too much mead?). A giant, all curled up, waiting to spring into action (or recovering).

Anyway, another mythos disgorging would be der Gruner Mann, the Green Man.

Cheers
GC

A. G. Maisey · 3rd July 2018, 10:02 PM

Thank you Hotspur.

Yes, possibly disgorging, but if we were to accept Green Man those two forked tongues could be interpreted as foliage shoots, depictions of Green Man with two similar foliage shoots emerging from the mouth do exist. But the most usual depiction of Green Man seems to be face only, full body is very unusual, in addition, although Green Man is ancient and widely spread, he is essentially Celtic.

The Green Man had also occurred to me, there are flowers attached to the wrists, the hair(?) on the top of the head is rendered in a foliage-like fashion, however, I do not know of The Green Man being depicted with fangs.

There is another problem also, with both Grendel and Green Man. Grendel is associated with English tradition, Beowulf is Old English literature. As for Green Man, I'd be more inclined to accepting him if this knife could be associated in some way with Celtic, or at least West English culture.

Still, at the moment I think both these gentlemen should go onto the short list.

Hotspur · 3rd July 2018, 11:46 PM

I really only mention the Green Man re disgorging, rather than showing two tongues. The beast in question could simply be snorting. Nanook would be a bit of a stretch as well but I did get to thinking of bears. Whomever, whatever is depicted does seem to be scaled or armored. Winged dragons a later Asiatic influence? Conyer's slaying the great (Lambton) worm almost infers no legs. However, Carroll's Jabberwocky is most dragon like as well.

Anglo-Saxon mythos intertwine and der Gruener Mann is older than England alone. As are the Norse saga. Where is Lee? I was going to ping the Hurstwic guys and gals to see what they think of your knife.

Cheers
GC

A. G. Maisey · 4th July 2018, 01:46 AM

Yes, polar bears certainly would be a stretch.

European dragons are typically winged, Oriental/Chinese dragons are typically wingless.

In Modern Europe the Green Man seems to be recognised from about the 10th-11th century, but my understanding is that the roots of the Green Man pre-date Christianity by a considerable time.

The Celts are often thought of in terms of the British Isles, but in fact they are spread throughout Europe, my memory is that what we now recognise as Celtic Culture began in Central Europe around 600BC.

My feeling is that we need to delve into Norse mythology, something that is indeed a mystery to me. Yes, perhaps the Hurstwicians might have some viable suggestions.

3rd July 2018, 09:05 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Perhaps disgorging, rather than a split tongue. Grendel, I would think, a good choice to describe the beast (too much mead?). A giant, all curled up, waiting to spring into action (or recovering). Anyway, another mythos disgorging would be der Gruner Mann, the Green Man. Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 3rd July 2018 at 09:33 PM.

2nd July 2018, 05:21 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	My impression also, but A.G. would be one in the know about that end of things. Truly a anomalous puuko. We do see figural ivory Dutch sword handles carved in the Far East...

2nd July 2018, 07:20 PM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Kronckew,I must be having an "off-day," as well as I thought your post was rather humorous;thanks for the smile !

2nd July 2018, 11:53 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your responses gentlemen. I have maintained an interest in Nordic knives, especially puukko-style knives, for many years, I built a reasonably large collection of them, until I decided that they were just one more distraction from my work with the keris, so I sold off most of them and held on to only a few. In fact, when I was doing custom knife work I even made a few damascus blade puukkos. This knife that I have asked the question on is most definitely not associated in any way with Jawa or Bali. The silver work is European, not SE Asian, the motifs are European, the style is not SE Asian. This much I can be definite about. This is an old knife, my estimate is second half, 19th century. The name "Emil Pay" is engraved into a scabbard escutcheon and on the ferrule, I assume it is the original owner rather than the silversmith. The blade was made by the Gallus workshop, Gallus was a Norwegian maker, it is believed that Gallus blades were sometimes hilted by a well known 19th century Norwegian carver named Bogarson. There is a long tradition of wood carving in Scandinavian countries, many of the puukkos that I sold on to other collectors had very well carved handles. The identity of the hilt figure is my only question in respect of this knife, of course, all comments are welcome, but all I really need to know is the identity of the hilt figure. This figure has arms and legs and is in a kneeling position, the arms and hands are clear, the feet can be seen at the rear base. The figure has two tongues, one emerging from each side of its mouth, each of those tongues appears to be forked. Marius has suggested Jormungandr, and this may well be intended to be a humanised, or anthromorphic depiction of Jormungandr, but because Jormungandr is normally depicted and thought of as a serpent, this can only be a hypothetical identification. In any case, although Jormungandr has a forked tongue, it is a single tongue, not two tongues. A fang at either side, back of the mouth, indicates demonic character. Kronckew suggests that rather than two tongues we may be looking at dragon fire, this is certainly possible. So gentlemen, does anybody have any suggestions as to identity of the hilt figure?

3rd July 2018, 10:02 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Hotspur. Yes, possibly disgorging, but if we were to accept Green Man those two forked tongues could be interpreted as foliage shoots, depictions of Green Man with two similar foliage shoots emerging from the mouth do exist. But the most usual depiction of Green Man seems to be face only, full body is very unusual, in addition, although Green Man is ancient and widely spread, he is essentially Celtic. The Green Man had also occurred to me, there are flowers attached to the wrists, the hair(?) on the top of the head is rendered in a foliage-like fashion, however, I do not know of The Green Man being depicted with fangs. There is another problem also, with both Grendel and Green Man. Grendel is associated with English tradition, Beowulf is Old English literature. As for Green Man, I'd be more inclined to accepting him if this knife could be associated in some way with Celtic, or at least West English culture. Still, at the moment I think both these gentlemen should go onto the short list.

3rd July 2018, 11:46 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	I really only mention the Green Man re disgorging, rather than showing two tongues. The beast in question could simply be snorting. Nanook would be a bit of a stretch as well but I did get to thinking of bears. Whomever, whatever is depicted does seem to be scaled or armored. Winged dragons a later Asiatic influence? Conyer's slaying the great (Lambton) worm almost infers no legs. However, Carroll's Jabberwocky is most dragon like as well. Anglo-Saxon mythos intertwine and der Gruener Mann is older than England alone. As are the Norse saga. Where is Lee? I was going to ping the Hurstwic guys and gals to see what they think of your knife. Cheers GC

4th July 2018, 01:46 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, polar bears certainly would be a stretch. European dragons are typically winged, Oriental/Chinese dragons are typically wingless. In Modern Europe the Green Man seems to be recognised from about the 10th-11th century, but my understanding is that the roots of the Green Man pre-date Christianity by a considerable time. The Celts are often thought of in terms of the British Isles, but in fact they are spread throughout Europe, my memory is that what we now recognise as Celtic Culture began in Central Europe around 600BC. My feeling is that we need to delve into Norse mythology, something that is indeed a mystery to me. Yes, perhaps the Hurstwicians might have some viable suggestions.