A very special 'tulwar'

[Victrix]

Ariel, great to learn about the mec-kilic. I think these chainmail piercing swords have been around almost as long as chainmail itself. In Europe estocs were used in medieaval times but in islamic (for want of a more appropriate word?) lands they continued in use longer presumably because chainmail continued in use, probably because of a greater traditional attachment to archery?

The use of the Slavic word mach for this type of sword could be that the Ottomans first encountered these weapons during the conquest of the Balkans. This does not have to mean the swords originated here but that they were manufactured in the traditional centres in Passau and Brescia etc and imported to the Balkans which was the first point of contact for the Ottomans with European warfare. It makes you wonder if the crusaders did not use these weapons in which case they might have been called franji-kilic (Frankish sword) instead? Also I would be surprised if the mongols and tatars did not have chainmail piercing swords in which case the Turks would have adopted these swords alng with curved sabres. Not sure Circassians or Crimean Tatars spoke Slavic languages?

There was an earlier discussion about estocs here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21249 . You may find posts #13 and 16 in particular interesting.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

...I think these chainmail piercing swords have been around almost as long as chainmail itself.. .

So it seems indeed. As for origin, looking at the perspective of various Spanish sources, they have no doubt that the "estoc" (a term of old french origin, meaning the 'point of a sword') if not invented by the French, was certainly by them popularized. It appeared for the first time in the Peninsula in 1275, specifically in Cataluña, on its way from France.This may bee seen in contemporaneous paints and texts of the 100 years war. Like in many occasions, the invention of a weapon may be attributed to a people, a nation or person depending on historians and specialists works, but in the case of the estoc, results curious emphasizing the following text from Góngora (1561-1627):

"Cuyas armas siempre fueron,
aunque abolladas, triunfantes
de los franceses estoques
y de los turcos alfanjes"

Consensualy its development followed military evolution to face new defensive weapons (armour); Sancho IV of Castille harness dates from 1285, this weapon then having to be effective in penetrating armour weak points. It seems as the estoc was a must in wealthy Spaniards war gear, as established in the Cortes of Valladolid in 1385:
"All men that have each one an amount of twenty thousand maravedis or more, be obliged of having long harness with all armour parts, basinet or brimmed hat with its gorget, or helmet, and breeches and estoc and axe and dagger".

On the other hand, from all many examples from various origins so far shown here, not one is a little close from the the talwar hilted specimen shown in Tirri's. Whether its purpose is one of punching into unarmoured bodies, or that of a non lethal martial combat, or just a cremimonial item, it sure carries for the time being some enigma to it, not strange to the intricate & imaginative arsenal the India Subcontinent.

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