Keris Solo for identification

Paul B. · 29th June 2018, 07:18 PM

Here is a pic and it looks quite the same to me.

Bjorn · 29th June 2018, 08:40 PM

Paul, I'm afraid you've read too much into the illustration I provided. The illustration I added was only to show from what angle to take the photo, it does not show a Tuban gonjo.

As your photo is taken from an angle, it is difficult to see, but from what I can glance I'd say the gonjo is not Tuban.

In this thread you can read more about what a Tuban gonjo looks like.

Paul B. · 29th June 2018, 09:05 PM

Maybe it isn't the original ganja.

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2018, 10:21 PM

Based upon what I believe I can see in the photos, the gonjo might be a replacement, I cannot tell from the photo, and the blade classification is moving towards Tuban, but I would hesitate to give it as Tuban.

However, this brings us back to a continual problem with the Tangguh system of classification:- if it is not Tuban, what is it?

Is it in fact classifiable at all?

Well, I think it probably is classifiable but I'd need it in my hand to give any opinion, and that opinion would be based upon a balance of the indicators.

But is it Tuban Pajajaran?

No, sorry we cannot go there. As with just about all tangguhs, there are definite indicators that you can home in on as soon as you look at a blade, and then you try to confirm or discard those indicators by putting the other indicators on one side or the other of the balance.

In Tuban Pajajaran the lower gonjo tail below the buntut urang,that is, the area where we would look for a tungkakan if there was one, declines as it joins the wadidang. On Paul's keris the gonjo is straight, thus it cannot be classified as Tuban Pajajaran.

There are multiple other indicators that would need to be assessed in the hand, but that single "tungkakan" indicator disallows Tuban Pajajaran.

If we classify a blade as Tuban-Pajajaran, that does not necessarily mean that it originated in the Pajajaran era. The Pajajaran era ended in 1579.

The pamor at the gonjo sides is simply a random pamor that has had its appearance altered by forging to elongate the pattern, the wrongko is probably Cendana Jawa, that is unscented sandalwood.The jejeran is less than good,as also is the mendak, in fact these two items spoil the entire ensemble, which is actually pretty nice.

Paul B. · 29th June 2018, 10:34 PM

Thanks Alan for your insight and I have replaced both mendak and handle as I fully agree these are 'disturbing' elements.
The ivory handle has an integrated selut that is a decoratively carved bases. Quite unusual.

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2018, 11:27 PM

Very nice Paul, very nice indeed, but if you have one, I'd change that very nice ivory hilt for a dark wood hilt, possibly a yudowinatan?

It is deemed to be good taste to have a hilt that is darker than the wrongko.

Really as it is now it looks wonderful, its just that the darker hilt is more in line with conformity.

Rick · 30th June 2018, 01:13 AM

This begs the question Alan.
What would this ivory jejeran be suitable with?
Or is it just bling?
The carving looks to be exceptional.

jagabuwana · 21st July 2018, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If we classify a blade as Tuban-Pajajaran, that does not necessarily mean that it originated in the Pajajaran era. The Pajajaran era ended in 1579.

So what's in a name?

Alan you once mentioned that your teacher Empu Suparman (alm.) would believe without doubt that something classified as Tangguh Pajajaran was made within the borders of that kingdom, during the era it existed.
On the other hand, Empu Pauzan (alm.) thought the opposite, or at least that tangguh wasn't "real".

Like you, I would disagree with neither of them, but I think Empu Suparman's belief here is something I might have to run with and use as a benchmark for the sake of this question. So then what does it mean to classify something as Tuban-Pajajaran? Does it mean: a tuban style blade that, in the beliefs of some, was made during the time of Pajajaran and within the kingdom?

A. G. Maisey · 21st July 2018, 07:56 AM

Where tangguh is concerned Jaga, the name can mean a whole variety of things,and some of those things are according to the belief of an individual.
Pajajaran might mean Pajajaran era, it might Pajajaran geographic location , it might mean Pajajaran style, it might mean all three, or it mean none of these.

That's why some people might say:- "tangguh nggak sungguh'

However, if we use a systematic approach we can very often classify a keris blade according to the weight of its indicators, having arrived at the classification what it actually means is perhaps open to question, but one thing is certain:- a Blade classifiable as Majapahit is worth more than a blade classifiable as Tuban-Majapahit, and a blade classifiable as Koripan will cost less than a blade classifiable as Mataram, Sultan Agung --- even though both these blades are very similar to one another. Here I have given only two examples, but the tangguh classification of a blade is very definitely tied to its market value.

So, tangguh can be very real, or it can be very unreal. Depends on perspective.

When it does become extremely unreal is when we believe that without doubt tangguh Majapahit means that the blade was undoubtedly made during the Majapahit era.

Where it becomes very real is where we believe that tangguh Surakarta was made during the Surakarta era. Why? because Surakarta style could not possibly have existed prior to the Surakarta era, and even though many want us to call current era keris "Kemardikan", Tangguh Kemardikan was never a classification in the old tangguh system, and in fact Kraton Surakarta still exists, so we are still in the Surakarta era.

But in the real world whatever tangguh something might happen to be, it means nothing, or close to nothing to virtually all collectors who are not a part of Javanese society. To appreciate the relevance of a particular era or name, or word or idea we need to have an understanding of these eras, words, names, and ideas as that relevance is understood in the particular society.

To an outsider it is just curiosity, to a member of the relevant society it is a part of his cultural heritage, to dealer it is plain old hard, cold cash.

Perception:- what you see from where you stand.

jagabuwana · 24th July 2018, 12:46 PM

Makes sense, thanks Alan.
What is it then that makes a keris that is tangguh Majapahit worth more than Tuban-Majapahit?
I understand the answer might be due to the belief placed in the meanings, inferences and values behind the tangguh system, but to continue the "what's in a name?" angle, can a possible meaning of Tuban-Majapahit in this context be "a Majapahit-style blade from Tuban", or "a Tuban-style blade from the Majapahit era" , or am I way off?

29th June 2018, 07:18 PM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Here is a pic and it looks quite the same to me. Attached Images

29th June 2018, 10:34 PM	#5
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Thanks Alan for your insight and I have replaced both mendak and handle as I fully agree these are 'disturbing' elements. The ivory handle has an integrated selut that is a decoratively carved bases. Quite unusual. Attached Images

29th June 2018, 08:40 PM	#2
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Paul, I'm afraid you've read too much into the illustration I provided. The illustration I added was only to show from what angle to take the photo, it does not show a Tuban gonjo. As your photo is taken from an angle, it is difficult to see, but from what I can glance I'd say the gonjo is not Tuban. In this thread you can read more about what a Tuban gonjo looks like.

29th June 2018, 09:05 PM	#3
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Maybe it isn't the original ganja.

29th June 2018, 10:21 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Based upon what I believe I can see in the photos, the gonjo might be a replacement, I cannot tell from the photo, and the blade classification is moving towards Tuban, but I would hesitate to give it as Tuban. However, this brings us back to a continual problem with the Tangguh system of classification:- if it is not Tuban, what is it? Is it in fact classifiable at all? Well, I think it probably is classifiable but I'd need it in my hand to give any opinion, and that opinion would be based upon a balance of the indicators. But is it Tuban Pajajaran? No, sorry we cannot go there. As with just about all tangguhs, there are definite indicators that you can home in on as soon as you look at a blade, and then you try to confirm or discard those indicators by putting the other indicators on one side or the other of the balance. In Tuban Pajajaran the lower gonjo tail below the buntut urang,that is, the area where we would look for a tungkakan if there was one, declines as it joins the wadidang. On Paul's keris the gonjo is straight, thus it cannot be classified as Tuban Pajajaran. There are multiple other indicators that would need to be assessed in the hand, but that single "tungkakan" indicator disallows Tuban Pajajaran. If we classify a blade as Tuban-Pajajaran, that does not necessarily mean that it originated in the Pajajaran era. The Pajajaran era ended in 1579. The pamor at the gonjo sides is simply a random pamor that has had its appearance altered by forging to elongate the pattern, the wrongko is probably Cendana Jawa, that is unscented sandalwood.The jejeran is less than good,as also is the mendak, in fact these two items spoil the entire ensemble, which is actually pretty nice.

29th June 2018, 11:27 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Very nice Paul, very nice indeed, but if you have one, I'd change that very nice ivory hilt for a dark wood hilt, possibly a yudowinatan? It is deemed to be good taste to have a hilt that is darker than the wrongko. Really as it is now it looks wonderful, its just that the darker hilt is more in line with conformity.

30th June 2018, 01:13 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	This begs the question Alan. What would this ivory jejeran be suitable with? Or is it just bling? The carving looks to be exceptional.

21st July 2018, 07:56 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Where tangguh is concerned Jaga, the name can mean a whole variety of things,and some of those things are according to the belief of an individual. Pajajaran might mean Pajajaran era, it might Pajajaran geographic location , it might mean Pajajaran style, it might mean all three, or it mean none of these. That's why some people might say:- "tangguh nggak sungguh' However, if we use a systematic approach we can very often classify a keris blade according to the weight of its indicators, having arrived at the classification what it actually means is perhaps open to question, but one thing is certain:- a Blade classifiable as Majapahit is worth more than a blade classifiable as Tuban-Majapahit, and a blade classifiable as Koripan will cost less than a blade classifiable as Mataram, Sultan Agung --- even though both these blades are very similar to one another. Here I have given only two examples, but the tangguh classification of a blade is very definitely tied to its market value. So, tangguh can be very real, or it can be very unreal. Depends on perspective. When it does become extremely unreal is when we believe that without doubt tangguh Majapahit means that the blade was undoubtedly made during the Majapahit era. Where it becomes very real is where we believe that tangguh Surakarta was made during the Surakarta era. Why? because Surakarta style could not possibly have existed prior to the Surakarta era, and even though many want us to call current era keris "Kemardikan", Tangguh Kemardikan was never a classification in the old tangguh system, and in fact Kraton Surakarta still exists, so we are still in the Surakarta era. But in the real world whatever tangguh something might happen to be, it means nothing, or close to nothing to virtually all collectors who are not a part of Javanese society. To appreciate the relevance of a particular era or name, or word or idea we need to have an understanding of these eras, words, names, and ideas as that relevance is understood in the particular society. To an outsider it is just curiosity, to a member of the relevant society it is a part of his cultural heritage, to dealer it is plain old hard, cold cash. Perception:- what you see from where you stand.

24th July 2018, 12:46 PM	#10
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 291	Makes sense, thanks Alan. What is it then that makes a keris that is tangguh Majapahit worth more than Tuban-Majapahit? I understand the answer might be due to the belief placed in the meanings, inferences and values behind the tangguh system, but to continue the "what's in a name?" angle, can a possible meaning of Tuban-Majapahit in this context be "a Majapahit-style blade from Tuban", or "a Tuban-style blade from the Majapahit era" , or am I way off?