Help with ID

Hammondtx · 21st June 2018, 03:45 AM

Thanks all for the information, it's been interesting researching this. I buy, sell and trade antiques, acquired this sword in a trade. The man I got it from said it was his grandfathers but didn't know anything about his grandfathers travels or dealings. He remembered his grandfather showing it to him as a child but knew nothing else about it.

The plates on the sides aren't uncomfortable at all. I hardly notice them when holding it in hand. Here are some close up pictures of the sword in hand. I'm 6'4" and my hand is a tight fit. My thumb and index finger kind of lay flat on the sides of the plates. I don't feel the points at all.

I can't tell if the hilt is hollow or solid, it's very heavy. It does wiggle a bit if I shake it around but I wouldn't say is was really loose, just moves a fraction.

If you look at the first picture I posted there is a triangle shaped wedge cut out of the side of the dragons neck. Does this look like a repair or is that how it was made?

Rick · 21st June 2018, 04:30 PM

Well, it looks like it is a cut made by hand and soldered or brazed.
You can see that the bottom of one seam looks like it's still open.
I can't imagine accidental damage not deforming the metal around the area.

So maybe this is from the remounting (if it's not the original) of this hilt; and maybe in polish it may not show as clearly.

Peter Dekker · 21st August 2019, 05:01 PM

Hi guys,

I'm a bit late to the party, but the sword is probably from Sumatra. They had a tradition of these lion-headed European style hilts with stirrup type guard. Many VOC blades ended up there in local mounts.

See for another example, with markings to a local Sumatran ruler on the scabbard: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...sumatran-saber

M ELEY · 21st August 2019, 05:17 PM

Thanks for the fascinating link, Peter!

Jim McDougall · 21st August 2019, 09:41 PM

I agree with Mark, totally fascinating entry on the Sumatran possibility, and the similarity is compelling. What I found most fascinating in the sword of the OP is that curious octagonal escutcheon on the guard. As you note, the tradition of the lionhead seems to have well influenced numbers of hilts throughout the VOC spheres in the East Indies.

While the 'sinha' (=lionhead) of the kastane appears to have either derived from the European lionheads so often on Dutch swords, or evolved indigenously from earlier symbolism of the lion, the parallels are compelling. Whatever the case, the stirrup hilt with lion head hilt in the character of the religious symbolism of these regions is well known as European influence affected the court and status oriented swords of these regions. As noted in the excellent entry in Peter's site on the pedang lurus, these seem to have been nominally influenced by European hunting swords, and the gestalt is remarkably notable.

With the octagonal escutcheon on the guard of this sword, I am inclined to think perhaps it is intended to represent the Ka'bah, which among other things is regarded as the Qu'ranic symbol of paradise. As Sumatra is predominantly Muslim, perhaps this might be the intended representation.

The Ka'bah is apparently often used in Islamic architecture, and of course various material culture. It seems in many elements of arms decoration, architectural features serve as inspiration for their design.

As noted in earlier discussion, this escutcheon does not seem particularly ergonomically friendly, but then neither is the hilt of the kastane. These are intended as court or dress type accoutrements and not as primarily combat weapons.

As far as I have seen, the octagonal escutcheon on this example is the only one I have seen on sword hilts, and it would be interesting to see the use of this symbol on other hilts or decoration.

Will M · 22nd August 2019, 03:21 AM

Very nice find, the date 1776 is attractive to US collectors.
The join in the brass hilt is interesting, any idea why it is there? Possibly a repaired casting flaw? The wear from polishing on the hilt gives it good character.

Peter Dekker · 22nd August 2019, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With the octagonal escutcheon on the guard of this sword, I am inclined to think perhaps it is intended to represent the Ka'bah, which among other things is regarded as the Qu'ranic symbol of paradise. As Sumatra is predominantly Muslim, perhaps this might be the intended representation.

The Ka'bah is apparently often used in Islamic architecture, and of course various material culture. It seems in many elements of arms decoration, architectural features serve as inspiration for their design.

As noted in earlier discussion, this escutcheon does not seem particularly ergonomically friendly, but then neither is the hilt of the kastane. These are intended as court or dress type accoutrements and not as primarily combat weapons.

As far as I have seen, the octagonal escutcheon on this example is the only one I have seen on sword hilts, and it would be interesting to see the use of this symbol on other hilts or decoration.

You may well be right in its symbolic meaning.

For some reason, the various people of Sumatran came up with a number of weapons -including actual user grade types- that do not seem to be very ergonomic to us. A good example is the sikin panjang with pointy crowns that holds anything but nice, but several survive with fighting damage in the blades. (See: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...-sikin-panjang)

Jim McDougall · 22nd August 2019, 07:17 PM

Thanks very much Peter for bringing up this thread, as well as for the brilliant entries from items on your site. Reading them is always a learning experience.

I agree, these embellished hilts are not typically very ergonomic, but in situations may have been used accordingly. Often weapons which have been 'collected' and held away in the holdings of people have become the unfortunate victims of curious wielders or inappropriate utilitarian use.

I recall one gent who had asked me about a sword he had, which I told him was a unique Caucasian shashka (we were on the phone). I told him it was an extraordinary example and its approximate value....he quickly yelled at his son, in the back yard whacking weeds with it..to bring it in!!!

Obviously that is not always the case, but it does seem to explain some instances, otherwise, in a pinch, any weapon, even embellished court weapons may have seen true action, as seems the case with the examples you have entered.

Will, interesting note on the date/year on these VOC blades. Actually 1776 is an unusual year as far as I have seen, and most of these years range from mid to late 1700s. The configurations are pretty much the same aligned with the VOC. Either above or below are the initials of the kamer (chamber) of the pertinent VOC port...…….there were 6, the most prevalent being Amsterdam represented by capital A.
The others were Hoorn, Rotterdam, Enkhuizen, Delft, and Middleburg ...which is the case with the sword blade in the OP here.

It seems these VOC blades were produced in Solingen, and sent 'up river' to the ports in Netherlands, where they were either assembled with hilts, or in many cases, shipped out as cargo (and ballast) to East Indies ports where they became available as spare parts or trade items.
The men employed by VOC were required to purchase their own swords so these used by them may have often been freely traded and replaced.

It seems that the Amsterdam VOC blades were most common, followed by Middelburg and Rotterdam. The other chambers are less prevalent, and it seems there was one with a 'Z' (no, not Zorro!) which may have meant Zeeland, which was the province Middelburg was in.

21st June 2018, 03:45 AM	#1
Hammondtx Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Buffalo, TX Posts: 3	Thanks all for the information, it's been interesting researching this. I buy, sell and trade antiques, acquired this sword in a trade. The man I got it from said it was his grandfathers but didn't know anything about his grandfathers travels or dealings. He remembered his grandfather showing it to him as a child but knew nothing else about it. The plates on the sides aren't uncomfortable at all. I hardly notice them when holding it in hand. Here are some close up pictures of the sword in hand. I'm 6'4" and my hand is a tight fit. My thumb and index finger kind of lay flat on the sides of the plates. I don't feel the points at all. I can't tell if the hilt is hollow or solid, it's very heavy. It does wiggle a bit if I shake it around but I wouldn't say is was really loose, just moves a fraction. If you look at the first picture I posted there is a triangle shaped wedge cut out of the side of the dragons neck. Does this look like a repair or is that how it was made? Attached Images

21st June 2018, 04:30 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Well, it looks like it is a cut made by hand and soldered or brazed. You can see that the bottom of one seam looks like it's still open. I can't imagine accidental damage not deforming the metal around the area. So maybe this is from the remounting (if it's not the original) of this hilt; and maybe in polish it may not show as clearly. Attached Images

21st August 2019, 05:01 PM	#3
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Sumatran Hi guys, I'm a bit late to the party, but the sword is probably from Sumatra. They had a tradition of these lion-headed European style hilts with stirrup type guard. Many VOC blades ended up there in local mounts. See for another example, with markings to a local Sumatran ruler on the scabbard: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...sumatran-saber

21st August 2019, 09:41 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I agree with Mark, totally fascinating entry on the Sumatran possibility, and the similarity is compelling. What I found most fascinating in the sword of the OP is that curious octagonal escutcheon on the guard. As you note, the tradition of the lionhead seems to have well influenced numbers of hilts throughout the VOC spheres in the East Indies. While the 'sinha' (=lionhead) of the kastane appears to have either derived from the European lionheads so often on Dutch swords, or evolved indigenously from earlier symbolism of the lion, the parallels are compelling. Whatever the case, the stirrup hilt with lion head hilt in the character of the religious symbolism of these regions is well known as European influence affected the court and status oriented swords of these regions. As noted in the excellent entry in Peter's site on the pedang lurus, these seem to have been nominally influenced by European hunting swords, and the gestalt is remarkably notable. With the octagonal escutcheon on the guard of this sword, I am inclined to think perhaps it is intended to represent the Ka'bah, which among other things is regarded as the Qu'ranic symbol of paradise. As Sumatra is predominantly Muslim, perhaps this might be the intended representation. The Ka'bah is apparently often used in Islamic architecture, and of course various material culture. It seems in many elements of arms decoration, architectural features serve as inspiration for their design. As noted in earlier discussion, this escutcheon does not seem particularly ergonomically friendly, but then neither is the hilt of the kastane. These are intended as court or dress type accoutrements and not as primarily combat weapons. As far as I have seen, the octagonal escutcheon on this example is the only one I have seen on sword hilts, and it would be interesting to see the use of this symbol on other hilts or decoration. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd August 2019 at 01:59 AM.

21st August 2019, 05:17 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for the fascinating link, Peter!

22nd August 2019, 03:21 AM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	Very nice find, the date 1776 is attractive to US collectors. The join in the brass hilt is interesting, any idea why it is there? Possibly a repaired casting flaw? The wear from polishing on the hilt gives it good character.

22nd August 2019, 07:17 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Peter for bringing up this thread, as well as for the brilliant entries from items on your site. Reading them is always a learning experience. I agree, these embellished hilts are not typically very ergonomic, but in situations may have been used accordingly. Often weapons which have been 'collected' and held away in the holdings of people have become the unfortunate victims of curious wielders or inappropriate utilitarian use. I recall one gent who had asked me about a sword he had, which I told him was a unique Caucasian shashka (we were on the phone). I told him it was an extraordinary example and its approximate value....he quickly yelled at his son, in the back yard whacking weeds with it..to bring it in!!! Obviously that is not always the case, but it does seem to explain some instances, otherwise, in a pinch, any weapon, even embellished court weapons may have seen true action, as seems the case with the examples you have entered. Will, interesting note on the date/year on these VOC blades. Actually 1776 is an unusual year as far as I have seen, and most of these years range from mid to late 1700s. The configurations are pretty much the same aligned with the VOC. Either above or below are the initials of the kamer (chamber) of the pertinent VOC port...…….there were 6, the most prevalent being Amsterdam represented by capital A. The others were Hoorn, Rotterdam, Enkhuizen, Delft, and Middleburg ...which is the case with the sword blade in the OP here. It seems these VOC blades were produced in Solingen, and sent 'up river' to the ports in Netherlands, where they were either assembled with hilts, or in many cases, shipped out as cargo (and ballast) to East Indies ports where they became available as spare parts or trade items. The men employed by VOC were required to purchase their own swords so these used by them may have often been freely traded and replaced. It seems that the Amsterdam VOC blades were most common, followed by Middelburg and Rotterdam. The other chambers are less prevalent, and it seems there was one with a 'Z' (no, not Zorro!) which may have meant Zeeland, which was the province Middelburg was in.