"Is it really a Cockatoo?"

Ian · 20th June 2018, 05:19 AM

Ron,

I was looking through some old reference books and browsing Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, ed. Bud Lang, 5th edition, Krause Publishing:Iola, WI, 2001.

Several foreign knives are included in this encyclopedic book, and I have reproduced below the page that shows some Philippines knives. On p. 488 it shows a "Philippines (Northern Mindanao) Moro Dagger" (number G.8). In the description it refers to an "elaborate bird-head ("sarimanuk") hilt of a silver-copper alloy." It further notes that this knife has a "19th century blade in 20th century mounts." I have enlarged that item and posted it below--the pics are not very good owing to the low quality of the original printing.

The hilt style does seem 20th C. to me, maybe post-WWII, and resembles a style that I think was developed for marketing to tourists. Typically, these knives have elaborate hilts and guards with lots of curls. The copper alloy of the hilt and guard is often repeated in the scabbard, which is usually all metal. These highly decorative knives are fairly common and often have thin, poor quality blades made from sheet steel--wavy blades are found on them, and these have sharply pointed luk that likely indicate the waves have been ground rather than forged.

The ornamentation of these hilts resembles to me the depictions of feathers on the mythical sarimanok that you have referenced, and I wonder if this is where the idea that the hilt represents that creature may have arisen.

This is the only reference to a "sarimanuk hilt" I have been able to find.

Ian.

.

David · 20th June 2018, 02:59 PM

When i search for "Sarimanok hilt" i find a good number of hits lead me to these very old (10-13 century) gold hilts. I do not believe these swords were kris per se, but this does seem to help establish the symbolic use of the Sarimanok within the culture as hilts and pommels for swords going back centuries ago.

kai · 20th June 2018, 05:47 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

When i search for "Sarimanok hilt" i find a good number of hits lead me to these very old (10-13 century) gold hilts. I do not believe these swords were kris per se, but this does seem to help establish the symbolic use of the Sarimanok within the culture as hilts and pommels for swords going back centuries ago.

There seems to be no extant sources corroborating that these hilts really were attributed to the same "mythological beast" originally nor has it been established that there is any continuous line of cultural descent. Arguing that the Maranao figurines are similar enough to the gold hilts to prove any connection seems overly enthusiastic to me to say the least.

Thus, I'm far from convinced that this attribution holds any water! I'll ask Lorenz - maybe he can point us to the origin of this attribution/story...

Regards,
Kai

David · 20th June 2018, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

There seems to be no extant sources corroborating that these hilts really were attributed to the same "mythological beast" originally nor has it been established that there is any continuous line of cultural descent. Arguing that the Maranao figurines are similar enough to the gold hilts to prove any connection seems overly enthusiastic to me to say the least.

I am arguing nothing here Kai, simply presenting information for consideration. That is why i said that these images "seem to help establish" rather than "here is the evidence that this is true."

I do believe, however, that one can find a great deal of commonality between these old bird-like gold hilts and various depictions of the Sarimanok. They do indeed seem to be abstract bird heads and they look quite similar to many established depictions of Sarimanok.
Here is some further information about the Sarimanok gathered from the internet. There are numerous origin stories so it is difficult sorting out what the actual development of this mythological beast actually is, but it is clearly an old and important symbolic creature to the region while one can find little to nothing showing the importance of kakatau (cockatoo) to the Moro.
BTW, it does seem that most sources of information that i encounter seem to define the word "Sarimanok" as Sari-article of clothing, usually colorful and Manok-chicken or bird. So the Sairmanok is seen as a colorfully dressed bird. In some stories it seems to have its roots with the Maranao totem bird called Itotoro who has an invisible spirit twin called Inikadowa and together they act as a medium to the spirit world.
Another theory is the the Sarimanok came from the Garuda and then developed into its own creature. It does appear, however, that it did exist in Maranao lore before the arrival of the Spanish.
The FMA blog linked here cites its use as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. Perhaps another reason why such a symbolic presence might end up being represented on a kris used to fight in such resistance.
And yes, none of this is particularly back up by any strong extant sources that Kai (and i believe all of us) would like to see. But i must remind you Cato's hypothesis that the pommel of the kris that we speak about here might represent a kakatau does not really have any more evidence behind it either.

http://pinoy-culture.com/the-sariman...of-lake-lanao/

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/sa...no-spirit.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarimanok

Ian · 20th June 2018, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am arguing nothing here Kai, simply presenting information for consideration. That is why i said that these images "seem to help establish" rather than "here is the evidence that this is true."

I do believe, however, that one can find a great deal of commonality between these old bird-like gold hilts and various depictions of the Sarimanok. They do indeed seem to be abstract bird heads and they look quite similar to many established depictions of Sarimanok.
Here is some further information about the Sarimanok gathered from the internet. There are numerous origin stories so it is difficult sorting out what the actual development of this mythological beast actually is, but it is clearly an old and important symbolic creature to the region while one can find little to nothing showing the importance of kakatau (cockatoo) to the Moro.
BTW, it does seem that most sources of information that i encounter seem to define the word "Sarimanok" as Sari-article of clothing, usually colorful and Manok-chicken or bird. So the Sairmanok is seen as a colorfully dressed bird. In some stories it seems to have its roots with the Maranao totem bird called Itotoro who has an invisible spirit twin called Inikadowa and together they act as a medium to the spirit world.
Another theory is the the Sarimanok came from the Garuda and then developed into its own creature. It does appear, however, that it did exist in Maranao lore before the arrival of the Spanish.
The FMA blog linked here cites its use as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. Perhaps another reason why such a symbolic presence might end up being represented on a kris used to fight in such resistance.
And yes, none of this is particularly back up by any strong extant sources that Kai (and i believe all of us) would like to see. But i must remind you Cato's hypothesis that the pommel of the kris that we speak about here might represent a kakatau does not really have any more evidence behind it either.

http://pinoy-culture.com/the-sariman...of-lake-lanao/

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/sa...no-spirit.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarimanok

David:

Thanks for the additional research. I found the article on the Pinoy-Culture site particularly helpful in setting out diverse theories about the origins of the sarimanok. The blog comments are interesting opinions but offer less than the other article.

Because Filipino web sites tend to disappear over time, I downloaded these article and post them here as PDF files for future reference.

Ian.

--------------Attachment: Copies of Sarimanok Articles---------------
.

David · 21st June 2018, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

David:

Thanks for the additional research. I found the article on the Pinoy-Culture site particularly helpful in setting out diverse theories about the origins of the sarimanok. The blog comments are interesting opinions but offer less than the other article.

Because Filipino web sites tend to disappear over time, I downloaded these article and post them here as PDF files for future reference.

Ian.

--------------Attachment: Copies of Sarimanok Articles---------------
.

I agree Ian. What i did find relevant about the blog article was that it had a martial arts perspective and spoke about the Sarimanok as being used as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. But as i also pointed out, there are no points of reference for these observations so it's hard to say what the truth is here.
Thanks for copying them though. I hate when links disappear.

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2018, 05:26 AM

This Sarimanok thing has got me intrigued, but I cannot speak the Maranao language, and since it appears that the Sarimanok first appeared within Maranao culture it is essential that anybody attempting to fathom the original meaning and intent of the word "Sarimanok" must begin by gaining a knowledge of the language, then the culture and society.

So, rather than assemble all of the possible meanings for the two words "sari" and "manok" why not home in on the language of the people who first gave birth to the Sarimanok?

The word "sari" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese. In these languages it has a number of meanings, some related, some unrelated, and it can also be a woman's name.

It would surprise me if it did not have a number of meanings in the Maranao language also, and the probable meaning to choose then becomes a matter of context.

Incidentally, the word "sari" with various accented pronunciations, as well as "sati" and "sara" with a similar number of accented pronunciation variations also appear in Sanscrit. The origin of the word "sari" is far from a settled matter amongst those people who make the study of language their profession.

The word "manuk/manok" appears to be indigenous Malay, and again, where it appears in an Indonesian language it can have a variety of applications, but principally it means "bird".

What is the correct meaning of the word "manok/manuk" in the Maranao language?

When it is understood clearly exactly what the word "Sarimanok" means within an enlightened Maranao cultural context, then perhaps it may be possible go behind this first level of understanding by probing the Maranao cultural understanding of the idea of "Sarimanok".

Possibly when the matter is thoroughly understood, we may find that there is a relationship between the Sarimanok as a pommel and ancestor/dewa/dewi as ancestor that applies with weapon hilts of other Indianised SE Asian states.

kai · 20th June 2018, 05:58 PM

Thanks, Ian!

Quote:

I was looking through some old reference books and browsing Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, ed. Bud Lang, 5th edition, Krause Publishing:Iola, WI, 2001.

Several foreign knives are included in this encyclopedic book, and I have reproduced below the page that shows some Philippines knives. On p. 488 it shows a "Philippines (Northern Mindanao) Moro Dagger" (number G.8). In the description it refers to an "elaborate bird-head ("sarimanuk") hilt of a silver-copper alloy." It further notes that this knife has a "19th century blade in 20th century mounts." I have enlarged that item and posted it below--the pics are not very good owing to the low quality of the original printing.

The hilt style does seem 20th C. to me, maybe post-WWII, and resembles a style that I think was developed for marketing to tourists. Typically, these knives have elaborate hilts and guards with lots of curls. The copper alloy of the hilt and guard is often repeated in the scabbard, which is usually all metal. These highly decorative knives are fairly common and often have thin, poor quality blades made from sheet steel--wavy blades are found on them, and these have sharply pointed luk that likely indicate the waves have been ground rather than forged.

The ornamentation of these hilts resembles to me the depictions of feathers on the mythical sarimanok that you have referenced, and I wonder if this is where the idea that the hilt represents that creature may have arisen.

I'm not aware of a single antique example of this (hilt) type. Chances are that this is a modern invention by Marawi craftsmen (most likely post-WW2 as you suggest) which received a well-selling attribution...

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 20th June 2018, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks, Ian!

I'm not aware of a single antique example of this (hilt) type. Chances are that this is a modern invention by Marawi craftsmen (most likely post-WW2 as you suggest) which received a well-selling attribution...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai:

Yes, I agree. The fanciful metal hilts and sheaths with baroque-like flourishes seem to be late 20th C. and made in Mindanao. When I visited Zamboanga in the 1990s I found them in the markets and tourist areas where they were moderately inexpensive souvenirs. The blades were disappointing and some were not even sharpened. They were also to be found in tourist outlets in Metro Manila (Intramuros, Makati, Quezon City, etc.) around the same time.

Ian.

20th June 2018, 05:19 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,470	Ron, I was looking through some old reference books and browsing Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, ed. Bud Lang, 5th edition, Krause Publishing:Iola, WI, 2001. Several foreign knives are included in this encyclopedic book, and I have reproduced below the page that shows some Philippines knives. On p. 488 it shows a "Philippines (Northern Mindanao) Moro Dagger" (number G.8). In the description it refers to an "elaborate bird-head ("sarimanuk") hilt of a silver-copper alloy." It further notes that this knife has a "19th century blade in 20th century mounts." I have enlarged that item and posted it below--the pics are not very good owing to the low quality of the original printing. The hilt style does seem 20th C. to me, maybe post-WWII, and resembles a style that I think was developed for marketing to tourists. Typically, these knives have elaborate hilts and guards with lots of curls. The copper alloy of the hilt and guard is often repeated in the scabbard, which is usually all metal. These highly decorative knives are fairly common and often have thin, poor quality blades made from sheet steel--wavy blades are found on them, and these have sharply pointed luk that likely indicate the waves have been ground rather than forged. The ornamentation of these hilts resembles to me the depictions of feathers on the mythical sarimanok that you have referenced, and I wonder if this is where the idea that the hilt represents that creature may have arisen. This is the only reference to a "sarimanuk hilt" I have been able to find. Ian. . Attached Images

20th June 2018, 02:59 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	When i search for "Sarimanok hilt" i find a good number of hits lead me to these very old (10-13 century) gold hilts. I do not believe these swords were kris per se, but this does seem to help establish the symbolic use of the Sarimanok within the culture as hilts and pommels for swords going back centuries ago. Attached Images

21st June 2018, 05:26 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	This Sarimanok thing has got me intrigued, but I cannot speak the Maranao language, and since it appears that the Sarimanok first appeared within Maranao culture it is essential that anybody attempting to fathom the original meaning and intent of the word "Sarimanok" must begin by gaining a knowledge of the language, then the culture and society. So, rather than assemble all of the possible meanings for the two words "sari" and "manok" why not home in on the language of the people who first gave birth to the Sarimanok? The word "sari" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese. In these languages it has a number of meanings, some related, some unrelated, and it can also be a woman's name. It would surprise me if it did not have a number of meanings in the Maranao language also, and the probable meaning to choose then becomes a matter of context. Incidentally, the word "sari" with various accented pronunciations, as well as "sati" and "sara" with a similar number of accented pronunciation variations also appear in Sanscrit. The origin of the word "sari" is far from a settled matter amongst those people who make the study of language their profession. The word "manuk/manok" appears to be indigenous Malay, and again, where it appears in an Indonesian language it can have a variety of applications, but principally it means "bird". What is the correct meaning of the word "manok/manuk" in the Maranao language? When it is understood clearly exactly what the word "Sarimanok" means within an enlightened Maranao cultural context, then perhaps it may be possible go behind this first level of understanding by probing the Maranao cultural understanding of the idea of "Sarimanok". Possibly when the matter is thoroughly understood, we may find that there is a relationship between the Sarimanok as a pommel and ancestor/dewa/dewi as ancestor that applies with weapon hilts of other Indianised SE Asian states. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st June 2018 at 05:37 AM.