Keris lurus/sepokal Bugis for comment

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2018, 02:11 AM

Yeah, there are several grades of arsenic, the industrial stuff I used was supposedly the highest industrial grade, but I couldn't get any acceptable result from it. There are industrial uses for arsenic, it used to be used to treat timber as a rot and insect preventative --- as well as other uses that I do not know.

jagabuwana · 20th June 2018, 05:07 AM

David - Thank you - there are indeed stacks of information about staining keris on the forum. I recall the sulphur and rice water method but I'll probably put this last on the list because I don't want to come home to my housemates gathered in a circle, dressed in hazmat suits, talking about how best to evict me

I'll ask and look around to see where I could buy some realgar. I don't suppose I'd need too much to stain a single blade? (well, assuming that the first job is a good job, which seems unlikely).

Alan - Gotchya - thanks. In another thread from some time back you mentioned using cold blue to touch up some blades and rifles, and that while you hadn't used it to stain a complete blade, it is possible that cold blue could do the job. Have you since attempted this?

To all - Ferric Chloride gets mentioned a lot in my research into etching and staining. Would using FeCl likely give me a better result than fruit or acetic acids?

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2018, 05:36 AM

No Novan, I have not yet tried cold blue on any blade that has nickel in it.

I have use ferric chloride a lot. Thirty years ago I was very active in custom knifemaking, I made complete knives --- not very well --- and I made a lot of damascus blades, random pattern, but good quality, that I mostly sold to other knife makers.

Ferric chloride works very well on new, well polished damascus, however I have not had good results when I have tried it on older blades or pamor material.

Roland_M · 20th June 2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferric chloride works very well on new, well polished damascus, however I have not had good results when I have tried it on older blades or pamor material.

Hello Alan,

thank you for your explanation about pamor steel. My sources are obviously wrong and it is not just one. Someone made a translation mistake or so and many German authors adopt that mistake.

Ferric chloride on antique blades is difficult! Some users have very good results, my results with low concentrated FeC-etchants are always bad. FeC causes pitting on my blades and create a nasty surface. A good alternative is Iron III Sulfate with a concentration between 10 and 20%. Iron III Sulfate is a very weak etchant and it is almost impossible to ruin a blade with that etchant.

Roland

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2018, 02:05 PM

I didn't manage to damage any blades with ferric chloride Roland, but I never did get a good result from it on anything but new, polished mechanical damascus.

I don't do that sort of work any more, but if I ever have occasion to need to do it again I'll give your recommendation a go.

jagabuwana · 21st June 2018, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Ferric chloride on antique blades is difficult! Some users have very good results, my results with low concentrated FeC-etchants are always bad. FeC causes pitting on my blades and create a nasty surface. A good alternative is Iron III Sulfate with a concentration between 10 and 20%. Iron III Sulfate is a very weak etchant and it is almost impossible to ruin a blade with that etchant.

Roland

Interesting recommendation - thank you Roland. Have you personally etched or stained any old keris that contained nickel with Iron III Sulfate? If so, I'd be very grateful if you had any photos or examples of this work.

I'd be willing to give it a try, but as you might understand, I would first like to confirm if it is an appropriate substance for a blade of this age and composition.

jagabuwana · 24th June 2018, 02:29 AM

Update: This is the 7th day of soaking this blade in white vinegar (cooking sort).
I thought it was ready but after killing the acid with bicarb, gently scrubbing with creme cleanser and hairdrying, while it's mostly white, some either rapidly forms or becomes visible on some parts. Also some of the pamor comes out a glittering, slightly brass colour.

I was fairly sure I got the rust out from the crevice between the gonjo and blade, and it appears clean when dry, but rust appears again.

I am using a bristle brush to scrub it (slightly harder than a hard tooth brush) and when there were stubborn, harder chunks of rust I used a precision pick.

Is there something I'm doing wrong here, or is it just a matter of soaking for longer? I've removed from the soak, killed the acid and dried on days 5 and 6 also, and the same rust / brass colouring appears.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2018, 04:47 AM

Novan, what you have related seems pretty OK to me, but here is the thing:- if the blade is white and clean with no specks of rust on it immediately after drying, then it is clean.

At that point I would either immediately stain it, which you cannot do, or spray it with WD40 and allow to drain and dry on several successive days.

It sounds to me as if you are seeing surface rust that has been generated simply by atmospheric humidity, or something in the surrounding air, or maybe there is still a slight residue of vinegar or moisture in the grain of the metal.

I'm guessing that right at this moment it is sitting somewhere, nice and dry and waiting for you to come back and get rid of the nasty yellowish tint that has formed on the surface. If so, just let it sit and wait for a few days.

If you think you can give some time to it next Saturday, put it back into clean vinegar on say Thursday. When you take it out on Saturday, rinse thoroughly under running water and dry it, kill the vinegar by brushing a slurry of bi-carb over the blade, let it stand for 5 minutes or so, then in the kitchen sink using warm water, a toothbrush and dishwash detergent, give it a really thorough wash, followed by a really thorough rinse. Pat it dry with a lint free cloth, dry it well with a hair dryer, then go outside and drench it with a WD40 spray. Lean it point down against a wall and let it sit till Sunday, drench it with WD40 again, and again on Monday.

If you still have a problem, PM me, and I'll have a look at it next time I'm in Sydney.

What sort of container are you using to soak it in?

20th June 2018, 02:11 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, there are several grades of arsenic, the industrial stuff I used was supposedly the highest industrial grade, but I couldn't get any acceptable result from it. There are industrial uses for arsenic, it used to be used to treat timber as a rot and insect preventative --- as well as other uses that I do not know.

20th June 2018, 05:07 AM	#2
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	David - Thank you - there are indeed stacks of information about staining keris on the forum. I recall the sulphur and rice water method but I'll probably put this last on the list because I don't want to come home to my housemates gathered in a circle, dressed in hazmat suits, talking about how best to evict me I'll ask and look around to see where I could buy some realgar. I don't suppose I'd need too much to stain a single blade? (well, assuming that the first job is a good job, which seems unlikely). Alan - Gotchya - thanks. In another thread from some time back you mentioned using cold blue to touch up some blades and rifles, and that while you hadn't used it to stain a complete blade, it is possible that cold blue could do the job. Have you since attempted this? To all - Ferric Chloride gets mentioned a lot in my research into etching and staining. Would using FeCl likely give me a better result than fruit or acetic acids?

20th June 2018, 05:36 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	No Novan, I have not yet tried cold blue on any blade that has nickel in it. I have use ferric chloride a lot. Thirty years ago I was very active in custom knifemaking, I made complete knives --- not very well --- and I made a lot of damascus blades, random pattern, but good quality, that I mostly sold to other knife makers. Ferric chloride works very well on new, well polished damascus, however I have not had good results when I have tried it on older blades or pamor material.

20th June 2018, 02:05 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I didn't manage to damage any blades with ferric chloride Roland, but I never did get a good result from it on anything but new, polished mechanical damascus. I don't do that sort of work any more, but if I ever have occasion to need to do it again I'll give your recommendation a go.

24th June 2018, 02:29 AM	#7
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Update: This is the 7th day of soaking this blade in white vinegar (cooking sort). I thought it was ready but after killing the acid with bicarb, gently scrubbing with creme cleanser and hairdrying, while it's mostly white, some either rapidly forms or becomes visible on some parts. Also some of the pamor comes out a glittering, slightly brass colour. I was fairly sure I got the rust out from the crevice between the gonjo and blade, and it appears clean when dry, but rust appears again. I am using a bristle brush to scrub it (slightly harder than a hard tooth brush) and when there were stubborn, harder chunks of rust I used a precision pick. Is there something I'm doing wrong here, or is it just a matter of soaking for longer? I've removed from the soak, killed the acid and dried on days 5 and 6 also, and the same rust / brass colouring appears.

24th June 2018, 04:47 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Novan, what you have related seems pretty OK to me, but here is the thing:- if the blade is white and clean with no specks of rust on it immediately after drying, then it is clean. At that point I would either immediately stain it, which you cannot do, or spray it with WD40 and allow to drain and dry on several successive days. It sounds to me as if you are seeing surface rust that has been generated simply by atmospheric humidity, or something in the surrounding air, or maybe there is still a slight residue of vinegar or moisture in the grain of the metal. I'm guessing that right at this moment it is sitting somewhere, nice and dry and waiting for you to come back and get rid of the nasty yellowish tint that has formed on the surface. If so, just let it sit and wait for a few days. If you think you can give some time to it next Saturday, put it back into clean vinegar on say Thursday. When you take it out on Saturday, rinse thoroughly under running water and dry it, kill the vinegar by brushing a slurry of bi-carb over the blade, let it stand for 5 minutes or so, then in the kitchen sink using warm water, a toothbrush and dishwash detergent, give it a really thorough wash, followed by a really thorough rinse. Pat it dry with a lint free cloth, dry it well with a hair dryer, then go outside and drench it with a WD40 spray. Lean it point down against a wall and let it sit till Sunday, drench it with WD40 again, and again on Monday. If you still have a problem, PM me, and I'll have a look at it next time I'm in Sydney. What sort of container are you using to soak it in?