curious forged tip.

Tim Simmons · 1st April 2006, 06:25 PM

I got this knife last weekend, nothing we have not seen many times before. We have also been shown this type of oddly forged tip. What I am asking is how many of us have one like it? How common is this? It is quite distinctly different from tip damage from hitting something hard or use as a screw driver. Tim

drdavid · 1st April 2006, 09:43 PM

Hi Tim
that is a very similar type of tip as I showed some time back on a knife from the Maldives.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=maldives

Various explainations were suggested but there seemed to be some concensus that this was a deliberate manufacturing not the result of damage. I am very interested to see it come up in a geographically separate area.
DrD

Lew · 2nd April 2006, 12:59 AM

Tim

I think its damaged from using the tip as a pry bar. Those daggers are made from mild steel with little or no real heat treatment the result is a soft blade. It doesn't make sense to me that the tip would be made like this it would hinder penetration if the dagger needed to be used.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 2nd April 2006, 09:37 AM

I just do not Know; the knife here is fully tempered and the bend to the tip seems to have been formed in a very controlled manner. Also there appears to be no pressure marks or signs of misuse to the central ridge on both sides of the blade at the tip. If it was not so well formed and tempered I would be happy to just tap it straight again with my rawhide mallet. There must be more like this?

drdavid · 2nd April 2006, 10:57 AM

I'm with you on this Tim, the example I have does not look like it was abused, it looks like it has always been that way. Perhaps penetration power was not considered the primary function of these (I still would not like one poked into my rib cage bent tip or not). The example I have is quite small more of a utility knife than a serious weapon.
DrD

Zan · 2nd April 2006, 05:23 PM

Hi everybody,

I also have a quite similar example, exept that the blade is perfectly straight and a little bit shorter. It looks like a simple knife, maybe a self-defense one, but surely not a attack dagger : the blade is too thin and forged in a very average quality steel.

Zan

Tim Simmons · 2nd April 2006, 05:55 PM

This example has some weight and the steel seems pretty good. The blade section at the central ridge is 6mm and as you can see the whole blade is quite strong. The smaller knife has a constant blade section of 2mm. Somebody must have another with a bent tip?

Lew · 2nd April 2006, 08:33 PM

Tim

These knives are forged from rebar steel which has a very low carbon content and even if given a proper heat treat would't harden more than 40 rockwell. Before I collected ethnographic weapons I was heavily into custom forged blades so I know a little about heat treating steels. I really think this is the result of some idiot trying to pry open a car door or something. I have one of these daggers with a bent tip and the steel is soft but I am not going to stick it in a vice and bend it just to prove my point

no pun inteaded

Lew

ham · 2nd April 2006, 10:00 PM

Lew's right. The thing has been used to [attempt to] pry something open, in 2 directions.
If handled carefully, it can be straightenend.

good luck

Ham

ham · 3rd April 2006, 02:39 AM

Lew's right. The thing has been used to [attempt to] pry something open, in 2 directions.
If handled carefully, it can be straightened.

good luck

Lew · 3rd April 2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Lew's right. The thing has been used to [attempt to] pry something open, in 2 directions.
If handled carefully, it can be straightened.

good luck

Tim

Here is a Q and A from a blacksmithing website on rebar steel.
Is rebar good for tool making ? Can it be hardened ?
Mark - Tuesday, 01/16/01 19:29:13 GMT

Rebar: Mark, There are three different grades of rebar with different hardenabilities. Then there is OLD rebar which is generally non-specific as to specs or quality. No version is designed to be used as a tool steel. It IS done but I don't recommend it. You are much better off to use spring steel or recyle old tools

Mild Steel, Normal Strength or Ordinary Weldable Steel
These trade terms are often used interchangeably to describe standard carbon steels used for structural purposes, a typical example being AS3679 grade 250 or grade 300.

The term ‘mild steel’ is also applied commercially to carbon steels not covered by standard specifications. Carbon content of this steel may vary from quite low levels up to approximately 0.3%. Generally, commercial ‘mild steel’ can be expected to be readily weldable and have reasonable cold bending properties but to specify ‘mild steel’ is technically inappropriate and should not be used as a term in engineering.

So with a carbon content of 0.3% a smith would not be able to harden a blade making it very easy to bend when applying lateral force.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 3rd April 2006, 05:17 PM

I cannot tell what type of steel this knife is made of but it is certainly well tempered, As I am able to inspect the bend I am going to hedge my bets and leave it as it is rather than take it into the workshop and do anything to it. I just cannot make up my mind. I have a small Dha knife that has definitely been damaged at the tip and it is kind of different and more obvious. Thanks for the comments.

1st April 2006, 06:25 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	curious forged tip. I got this knife last weekend, nothing we have not seen many times before. We have also been shown this type of oddly forged tip. What I am asking is how many of us have one like it? How common is this? It is quite distinctly different from tip damage from hitting something hard or use as a screw driver. Tim Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 05:55 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This example has some weight and the steel seems pretty good. The blade section at the central ridge is 6mm and as you can see the whole blade is quite strong. The smaller knife has a constant blade section of 2mm. Somebody must have another with a bent tip? Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 08:33 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim These knives are forged from rebar steel which has a very low carbon content and even if given a proper heat treat would't harden more than 40 rockwell. Before I collected ethnographic weapons I was heavily into custom forged blades so I know a little about heat treating steels. I really think this is the result of some idiot trying to pry open a car door or something. I have one of these daggers with a bent tip and the steel is soft but I am not going to stick it in a vice and bend it just to prove my point no pun inteaded Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 3rd April 2006 at 04:51 PM.

1st April 2006, 09:43 PM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Tim that is a very similar type of tip as I showed some time back on a knife from the Maldives. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=maldives Various explainations were suggested but there seemed to be some concensus that this was a deliberate manufacturing not the result of damage. I am very interested to see it come up in a geographically separate area. DrD

2nd April 2006, 12:59 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim I think its damaged from using the tip as a pry bar. Those daggers are made from mild steel with little or no real heat treatment the result is a soft blade. It doesn't make sense to me that the tip would be made like this it would hinder penetration if the dagger needed to be used. Lew

2nd April 2006, 09:37 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I just do not Know; the knife here is fully tempered and the bend to the tip seems to have been formed in a very controlled manner. Also there appears to be no pressure marks or signs of misuse to the central ridge on both sides of the blade at the tip. If it was not so well formed and tempered I would be happy to just tap it straight again with my rawhide mallet. There must be more like this?

2nd April 2006, 10:57 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	I'm with you on this Tim, the example I have does not look like it was abused, it looks like it has always been that way. Perhaps penetration power was not considered the primary function of these (I still would not like one poked into my rib cage bent tip or not). The example I have is quite small more of a utility knife than a serious weapon. DrD

2nd April 2006, 05:23 PM	#6
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Hi everybody, I also have a quite similar example, exept that the blade is perfectly straight and a little bit shorter. It looks like a simple knife, maybe a self-defense one, but surely not a attack dagger : the blade is too thin and forged in a very average quality steel. Zan

2nd April 2006, 10:00 PM	#9
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Lew's right. The thing has been used to [attempt to] pry something open, in 2 directions. If handled carefully, it can be straightenend. good luck Ham

3rd April 2006, 02:39 AM	#10
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Lew's right. The thing has been used to [attempt to] pry something open, in 2 directions. If handled carefully, it can be straightened. good luck

3rd April 2006, 05:17 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I cannot tell what type of steel this knife is made of but it is certainly well tempered, As I am able to inspect the bend I am going to hedge my bets and leave it as it is rather than take it into the workshop and do anything to it. I just cannot make up my mind. I have a small Dha knife that has definitely been damaged at the tip and it is kind of different and more obvious. Thanks for the comments.