Seeking advice on Balinese keris hulu

David · 8th June 2018, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The blade... just like a Karangasem royal Keris stripped of its Kinatah

Forgive me Gustav, if i have misinterpreted this comment, but it seems to be a reference to the two Balinese keris that Alan presented not too long ago. If i am not mistaken, your take on those blades was that they were not, could not, be old blades. Are you trying to imply with this quip that you also believe that Anthony's blade is a contemporary creation? If so i would be very interested in knowing what, exactly, you would base that assessment on.

Gustav · 8th June 2018, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me Gustav, if i have misinterpreted this comment, but it seems to be a reference to the two Balinese keris that Alan presented not too long ago. If i am not mistaken, your take on those blades was that they were not, could not, be old blades. Are you trying to imply with this quip that you also believe that Anthony's blade is a contemporary creation? If so i would be very interested in knowing what, exactly, you would base that assessment on.

David, please read read my post carefully. I never have said, those blades from thread "Bling" wouldn't or couldn't be old.

In your comment above you even imply, I would have said, they were contemporary creation. That is more then a little bit far-fetched.

Not so long ago Alan did write a post about the precision in the use of language. Perhaps there should be one also about precision in reading a text.

………………………………………………………………...

Regarding Lalu Djelenga's mentioning of silver and brass Gerantim 20 or 30 years ago - Lalu Djelenga was Sasak and Sasak are Muslim. I would not wonder they appeared there even earlier, as Sasak society wasn't a rich one. What interests me is Bali, before 1928 and if possible, before 1908.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2018, 10:00 AM

Yes Gustav, you may well be correct in that brass and silver grantim did exist in Lombok, but did not exist in Bali. Djelengga was of course referring to the long past, as he notes that at the time he was writing the craftsmen who could make the woven grantim hilts were already "punah", that is gone, wiped out, destroyed utterly. In other words at the time Lalu Djelengga wrote his text there was no production of these hilts. His work was published in 2000, I think, but I'm not exactly sure when it was written, maybe 1980's or early 1990's?

In any case, he was writing about the long past.

Here is a pic of a brass grantim that I have had for about 60 years, it belongs to a keris that I am not prepared to put on exhibition in an online forum, however, this keris is undeniably Balinese, and in my estimation dates from at least the 19th century. It has an ivory gambar, and the appearance of that ivory would suggest a much earlier date than even the 1800's. I bought this keris from a Dutchman who fled to Australia prior to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies during WWII.

However, having said that, it is absolutely impossible for me to claim that I am certain that its geographic point of origin was Bali rather than Lombok. Bali had a long history of colonisation of Lombok, during this period --- which ended comparatively recently, 1890's --- there was constant movement back and forth between Bali and Lombok, and a craftsman working in Bali one month could be working in Lombok the next. It is impossible to know with any degree of certainty where cultural items of Balinese style were actually made --- unless one was there watching the manufacture. To all intents and purposes there can be no distinction between Balinese in Bali and Balinese in colonised Lombok. In fact, the language used in West Lombok today is mostly Balinese.

But there is one undeniable fact:- not all the people who were permitted to wear a grantim hilt were mega rich : not all could afford gold. The social situation in Bali is this:- a man who performs common labour could be classifiable as a noble, and in some situations could be ranked at a very high status. The Balinese hierarchical systems are so complex that not many Balinese people understand the relationships correctly. I certainly do not, all I can do is observe the results.

As an aside, one of my regular drivers in Ubud is in fact a prince, he lives a pretty ordinary existence, except when he needs to appear at some formal event, when he looks every inch a prince, and acts like one. It has always been thus.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that lower value materials were used in the production of grantim hilts by Balinese people in the distant past. But I cannot prove this, it is simply a logical belief.

Paul de Souza · 8th June 2018, 11:00 AM

Here is another brass grantim. The dealer I bought this from said it is "an old piece from Lombok". Just to share.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2018, 01:10 PM

Thank you Anthony.

In the photo the stones, or more correctly "pastes" --- material is unimportant --- appear to be red and green, is this correct?

There is a total of 8 stones. Is this correct?

I am uncertain of the arrangement of the stones, could you please clarify, for example:- RRGGRRGG, OR WHAT?

The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct?

Thank you.

David · 8th June 2018, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct?

I don't know Alan. If you look closely at the first close up that Anthony provided to show the stones it looks woven to me.
I assume from your comments that there could be some significance to the order of the colored paste arrangements. You are probably waiting for Anthony's response of the order, but could you speak more to that? Thanks!

kai · 8th June 2018, 03:36 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

There is a total of 8 stones.

Yup, see Anthony's post #19.

Quote:

I am uncertain of the arrangement of the stones, could you please clarify, for example:- RRGGRRGG, OR WHAT?

The pics show a single red and 3 adjacent reds: RGGRRRGG.

Quote:

The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct?

Sure looks woven to me from the pics in post #19: apparently "only" 2 transverse wires held by each woven section of the thin longitudinal strips...

Regards,
Kai

Anthony G. · 8th June 2018, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Alan,

Yup, see Anthony's post #19.

The pics show a single red and 3 adjacent reds: RGGRRRGG.

Sure looks woven to me from the pics in post #19: apparently "only" 2 transverse wires held by each woven section of the thin longitudinal strips...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Alan

Kai is correct. 8 stones, RGGRRRGG (Red/Green) and it looks woven alrite. It is very fine when I touches it. Does not looks it is craved etc.

David · 8th June 2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

Here is another brass grantim. The dealer I bought this from said it is "an old piece from Lombok". Just to share.

Paul, i have this hilt's exact twin. So exact that it would seem that these were perhaps casts and probably came out of the same workshop.
We had a discussion some time ago about what folks meant when they used the term "old". Dealers in general probably have a different definition most of the time than the average collector. I have always assumed that a hilt like this is at least post-WWII and probably a little newer than that. Possibly vintage would be a suitable term. Certainly not new. Here is a quick shot of mine for comparison.

Edit: Now that we have both our hilts up i do notice some small differences in the motifs around the top of the hilt, so perhaps not cast after all. The similarities are still very close and lead me to believe they came out of the same workshop around the same time.

David · 8th June 2018, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, please read read my post carefully. I never have said, those blades from thread "Bling" wouldn't or couldn't be old.

In your comment above you even imply, I would have said, they were contemporary creation. That is more then a little bit far-fetched.

Not so long ago Alan did write a post about the precision in the use of language. Perhaps there should be one also about precision in reading a text.

Well Gustav, i did begin my post with "forgive me if i have misinterpreted". Apparently i have. I was working from memory and did not go back to check that past thread. My bad. The memory is, after all, the first thing to go, isn't it? What you actually stated in the "Bling" thread was that those keris couldn't possiblly be from 18th century as presented.
So then you do agree that Anthony's blade is probably from the end of the 19th century? Perhaps if you had simply stated that instead of trying to make a sarcastic swipe at a past thread we would all have had clearer communication all around and not would need to be clarifying our comments here to begin with.

8th June 2018, 10:00 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yes Gustav, you may well be correct in that brass and silver grantim did exist in Lombok, but did not exist in Bali. Djelengga was of course referring to the long past, as he notes that at the time he was writing the craftsmen who could make the woven grantim hilts were already "punah", that is gone, wiped out, destroyed utterly. In other words at the time Lalu Djelengga wrote his text there was no production of these hilts. His work was published in 2000, I think, but I'm not exactly sure when it was written, maybe 1980's or early 1990's? In any case, he was writing about the long past. Here is a pic of a brass grantim that I have had for about 60 years, it belongs to a keris that I am not prepared to put on exhibition in an online forum, however, this keris is undeniably Balinese, and in my estimation dates from at least the 19th century. It has an ivory gambar, and the appearance of that ivory would suggest a much earlier date than even the 1800's. I bought this keris from a Dutchman who fled to Australia prior to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies during WWII. However, having said that, it is absolutely impossible for me to claim that I am certain that its geographic point of origin was Bali rather than Lombok. Bali had a long history of colonisation of Lombok, during this period --- which ended comparatively recently, 1890's --- there was constant movement back and forth between Bali and Lombok, and a craftsman working in Bali one month could be working in Lombok the next. It is impossible to know with any degree of certainty where cultural items of Balinese style were actually made --- unless one was there watching the manufacture. To all intents and purposes there can be no distinction between Balinese in Bali and Balinese in colonised Lombok. In fact, the language used in West Lombok today is mostly Balinese. But there is one undeniable fact:- not all the people who were permitted to wear a grantim hilt were mega rich : not all could afford gold. The social situation in Bali is this:- a man who performs common labour could be classifiable as a noble, and in some situations could be ranked at a very high status. The Balinese hierarchical systems are so complex that not many Balinese people understand the relationships correctly. I certainly do not, all I can do is observe the results. As an aside, one of my regular drivers in Ubud is in fact a prince, he lives a pretty ordinary existence, except when he needs to appear at some formal event, when he looks every inch a prince, and acts like one. It has always been thus. There is no doubt at all in my mind that lower value materials were used in the production of grantim hilts by Balinese people in the distant past. But I cannot prove this, it is simply a logical belief. Attached Images

8th June 2018, 11:00 AM	#4
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	Here is another brass grantim. The dealer I bought this from said it is "an old piece from Lombok". Just to share. Attached Images

8th June 2018, 01:10 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Thank you Anthony. In the photo the stones, or more correctly "pastes" --- material is unimportant --- appear to be red and green, is this correct? There is a total of 8 stones. Is this correct? I am uncertain of the arrangement of the stones, could you please clarify, for example:- RRGGRRGG, OR WHAT? The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct? Thank you.