Osborn's G Stamp

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day GC,

Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn?

Cheers,
Bryce

A clearly/fine cast in the style of the book example that is hilt marked to Osborn. I think you will find no other example that is.

Cheers
GC

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 10:34 PM

Quote:

G'day Guys, As all Osborn marked swords appear to have a G stamp, but some Osborn and Gunby swords do not, the most likely explanation is that at some point Osborn and Gunby stopped using the G stamp. I would like to try and narrow down what date this may have been. If anyone has a dateable Osborn and Gunby officer's sword, could you please check it for a G stamp on the ricasso and post the results here. Cheers, Bryce

The above from your explorations elsewhere. Could it be that Osborn stopped marking a G or GG to avoid confusion with others using it?

Fwiw, my frosty cast steel looking eagle pommel sword with a Woolley Deakin & Co marked blade, I don't necessarily attribute to their furbishing. My Thurkle eagle pommel undeniably the work of Thurkle's shops but not marked to them. My Ames eagle pommel undeniable that shop's work but entirely unmarked as to the shop, while the blade etch obviously theirs.

The b&g Osborn I referenced in a previous post is not clearly marked to Osborn, yet the blade artistry and the eagle form attributed to Osborn, indeed, your bright etched sword you posted above does mirror the federal eagle on the blade quite precisely. Do we then say that eagle may well not have been furbished by Osborn's shops?

I honestly have little else to offer the quest (or proof) you are undertaking. I do read that you are trying carefully not to promote the fallacy of an undistributed middle and find that admirable but I have been often confounded when finding fresh information.

Best
GC

Here is my plain Jane unmarked Osborn with a 12 on the ricasso

Bryce · 7th June 2018, 03:34 AM

G'day GC,

Here are some better shots of the blade decoration on my Osborn 1796 light cavalry officer's sabre that I posted above. You have obviously spent a lot more time looking at the fine details on blade decoration than I have. My philosophy is that if a sword is unmarked, it is very interesting speculating on who may have made it, but we will never know for sure.

Cheers,
Bryce

Norman McCormick · 8th June 2018, 06:34 PM

Hi,
1796 pattern L.C. officers sword manufactured between 1796 and 1801, G stamp visible as one of the langets has been broken off. I also have an 1821 pattern L.C. troopers sword with hilt, blade and scabbard marked to Osborn not Osborn's, there is no sign of a stamped G consistent with your findings.
Regards,
Norman.

Bryce · 9th June 2018, 02:37 AM

Thank you Norman. That is very helpful.
Cheers,
Bryce

Bryce · 10th June 2018, 11:39 PM

G'day Guys,

Having come across a few more examples of Osborn and Gunby marked swords without G stamps, I am once again confident that Osborn and Gunby discontinued the use of the G stamp at some stage. Also, Osborn and Gunby appear to have used a different G stamp than Osborn. The Osborn and Gunby G stamp uses a sans serif type font.

The top two photos are of Osborn and Gunby blades with the sans serif G.

The bottom photo is an Osborn 1803 sword with G stamp with "serifs".

Once again, if you have an Osborn and Gunby sword in your collection, please check it for G stamps and post the result.

Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2018, 05:32 PM

I have been watching this thread with great interest, fascinating topic, one which has been largely overlooked by most writers and resources over the years. It seems that Andrew Mowbray was one of the only ones who thought it significant to note these letters which distinctly occur stamped in the ricasso of many British blades of the late 18th into 19th c.

I do have the Mowbray book, and I don't mind at all going through it, it is full of great detail, revealing the depth of knowledge Mr. Mowbray had on these swords. One thing I always appreciated about Andy, was how entirely open and selfless he was in always sharing that, and willingness to help in answering queries from anyone who asked.

In the book, he does note the 'G' as being used to designate Gill, and interestingly also notes an 'O' or an 'Ob' marked on the ricasso in the same fashion, which is suggested to represent Osborn. It is mentioned as well that the GG stamp may have been added by Gunby when he partnered with Osborn in 1808, and wanted to distinguish from Gill's single G.

As Bryce has well pointed out, this seems disputed by the many examples of Osborn blades which seem to carry the G stamp. I also am inclined to think against Gill using a simple letter to signify 'his' blades. He was indeed quite a self promoter, and his blades well illustrate that character. In these times of powerful competition, it seems well placed.

In 18th century it does seem that Sweden (perhaps even others) often used a 'P' letter at the ricasso and the suggestion was that it represented 'proved'. This sounds of course logical.

With the curious majuscule letters at the ricasso on these blades, and the well placed observations and queries Bryce has posed, the question begged is 'what do these signify'?

The obvious interpretation is that these are first letter abbreviations for the names of makers, however the evidence does not carry that through in some cases.
There is one instance of a number in the same ricasso location and likely other such instances. Is it possible these letters have other signified values which may have been coded in accord with production administration?

7th June 2018, 03:34 AM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'day GC, Here are some better shots of the blade decoration on my Osborn 1796 light cavalry officer's sabre that I posted above. You have obviously spent a lot more time looking at the fine details on blade decoration than I have. My philosophy is that if a sword is unmarked, it is very interesting speculating on who may have made it, but we will never know for sure. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

8th June 2018, 06:34 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, 1796 pattern L.C. officers sword manufactured between 1796 and 1801, G stamp visible as one of the langets has been broken off. I also have an 1821 pattern L.C. troopers sword with hilt, blade and scabbard marked to Osborn not Osborn's, there is no sign of a stamped G consistent with your findings. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

10th June 2018, 11:39 PM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'day Guys, Having come across a few more examples of Osborn and Gunby marked swords without G stamps, I am once again confident that Osborn and Gunby discontinued the use of the G stamp at some stage. Also, Osborn and Gunby appear to have used a different G stamp than Osborn. The Osborn and Gunby G stamp uses a sans serif type font. The top two photos are of Osborn and Gunby blades with the sans serif G. The bottom photo is an Osborn 1803 sword with G stamp with "serifs". Once again, if you have an Osborn and Gunby sword in your collection, please check it for G stamps and post the result. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

9th June 2018, 02:37 AM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	Thank you Norman. That is very helpful. Cheers, Bryce

14th June 2018, 05:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I have been watching this thread with great interest, fascinating topic, one which has been largely overlooked by most writers and resources over the years. It seems that Andrew Mowbray was one of the only ones who thought it significant to note these letters which distinctly occur stamped in the ricasso of many British blades of the late 18th into 19th c. I do have the Mowbray book, and I don't mind at all going through it, it is full of great detail, revealing the depth of knowledge Mr. Mowbray had on these swords. One thing I always appreciated about Andy, was how entirely open and selfless he was in always sharing that, and willingness to help in answering queries from anyone who asked. In the book, he does note the 'G' as being used to designate Gill, and interestingly also notes an 'O' or an 'Ob' marked on the ricasso in the same fashion, which is suggested to represent Osborn. It is mentioned as well that the GG stamp may have been added by Gunby when he partnered with Osborn in 1808, and wanted to distinguish from Gill's single G. As Bryce has well pointed out, this seems disputed by the many examples of Osborn blades which seem to carry the G stamp. I also am inclined to think against Gill using a simple letter to signify 'his' blades. He was indeed quite a self promoter, and his blades well illustrate that character. In these times of powerful competition, it seems well placed. In 18th century it does seem that Sweden (perhaps even others) often used a 'P' letter at the ricasso and the suggestion was that it represented 'proved'. This sounds of course logical. With the curious majuscule letters at the ricasso on these blades, and the well placed observations and queries Bryce has posed, the question begged is 'what do these signify'? The obvious interpretation is that these are first letter abbreviations for the names of makers, however the evidence does not carry that through in some cases. There is one instance of a number in the same ricasso location and likely other such instances. Is it possible these letters have other signified values which may have been coded in accord with production administration?