Osborn's G Stamp

Bryce · 6th June 2018, 06:44 AM

G'Day GC,

At this stage I have no idea why Osborn marked some blades with 1,2 or even 4 G's. If you have any theories I am all ears. As to whether or not all Osborn marked officer's blades have a G stamp I can say that every one in my collection does, every one in Richard Dellar's collection does, every one in several other collections does and every one I have come across on the internet with a clear shot of the ricasso does. The majority (possibly all?) Osborn and Gunby marked swords do as well. Originally I thought that Osborn and Gunby stopped marking blades with a G stamp at some stage. Now I am not so sure. The G stamps can be very difficult to spot even on a sword without langets. Can I be sure that 100% of Osborn marked swords have a G stamp? The answer is no, hence the appeal for other collectors to check their swords for G stamps as well. What I am confident of is that the vast majority, (if not all) of Osborn marked officer's swords have one. I am less confident about Osborn's troopers swords as I don't have any in my collection. Richard Dellar has one and he says it doesn't have a stamp. The problem is that troopers' swords are less common in our collections and most have langets. These G stamps can be very difficult to spot behind langets. With several of my own swords I have been convinced they didn't have stamps, only to have another harder look and discover they do have G stamps.

Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 07:42 AM

My Osborn eagle pommel sword has a 12 stamp

Most Osborn eagle pommel swords (decorated or not) do not seem to display a G stamp and as many but a few) Bolton eagle pommels do seem to surface with the G stamp.

If you have already made up your mind and have run this by Dellar, I can only but continue to be unconvinced. It may take dismantling all these swords we have to look at tang marks as well.

In the files I had linked and mentioned again is an example of the same etch pattern of your bright sword but done in b&g (a set with a prefix of ful in that Osborn folder). Look closely at the US eagles displayed and the subtle differences in etches, both bright and b&g needlework. You'll see the example of the b&g Osborn that mirrors your bright etch and if you bother looking at my Bolton folder, you will see many Bolton examples that mirrors that Bolton I posted with the bright etch. Again, my point that there does not seem to have been a single source of a blade supply and both (at times) appearing with G stamps.

How much has Dellar delved into cutlers row in Birmingham and how many mills and foundries has he indexed? Curious minds and all that.

To me, if a blade is unmarked as to a retailer or known maker, I can only go by trends of the components and blade decorations. It is not just Wells and Upson, nor Spies and Wolfe in the US but continued mysteries such as the John Salter generations and distributions. Osborn styled swords thought to be originating with Osborn and sold through all on that brief list.

Also in my brief two decades of sword interests, as soon as I feel I have reached the pinnacle of understanding about a subject, more is surely to come. Let's see a complete history of Osborn's works to flesh out what is a nice bit of news copy but hardly conclusive (to me) that his smithys were producing those supposed thousands and that his work was above all others. Surely such information would be atop the cream of Birmingham history.

As contrary as I may seem, I appreciate your thoughts and additional notes. If the G was not necessarily an Osborn specific trait but found on many blades of quality; would it not as easily be as some have pointed out that the G and GG were universally used as marks of quality regardless of who made the blade? Both Germany, Alsace and England used the word Warranted before proved, etc came along. Osborn may be one to have demonstrating a unified proofing system and as such the G and GG might denote proofing but again not necessarily only on his blades. With the use of G already explained to be in use in Germany..... wait we're going in a circle again

Cheers
GC

Bryce · 6th June 2018, 08:42 PM

G'day GC,

Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn?

Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day GC,

Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn?

Cheers,
Bryce

A clearly/fine cast in the style of the book example that is hilt marked to Osborn. I think you will find no other example that is.

Cheers
GC

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 10:34 PM

Quote:

G'day Guys, As all Osborn marked swords appear to have a G stamp, but some Osborn and Gunby swords do not, the most likely explanation is that at some point Osborn and Gunby stopped using the G stamp. I would like to try and narrow down what date this may have been. If anyone has a dateable Osborn and Gunby officer's sword, could you please check it for a G stamp on the ricasso and post the results here. Cheers, Bryce

The above from your explorations elsewhere. Could it be that Osborn stopped marking a G or GG to avoid confusion with others using it?

Fwiw, my frosty cast steel looking eagle pommel sword with a Woolley Deakin & Co marked blade, I don't necessarily attribute to their furbishing. My Thurkle eagle pommel undeniably the work of Thurkle's shops but not marked to them. My Ames eagle pommel undeniable that shop's work but entirely unmarked as to the shop, while the blade etch obviously theirs.

The b&g Osborn I referenced in a previous post is not clearly marked to Osborn, yet the blade artistry and the eagle form attributed to Osborn, indeed, your bright etched sword you posted above does mirror the federal eagle on the blade quite precisely. Do we then say that eagle may well not have been furbished by Osborn's shops?

I honestly have little else to offer the quest (or proof) you are undertaking. I do read that you are trying carefully not to promote the fallacy of an undistributed middle and find that admirable but I have been often confounded when finding fresh information.

Best
GC

Here is my plain Jane unmarked Osborn with a 12 on the ricasso

Bryce · 7th June 2018, 03:34 AM

G'day GC,

Here are some better shots of the blade decoration on my Osborn 1796 light cavalry officer's sabre that I posted above. You have obviously spent a lot more time looking at the fine details on blade decoration than I have. My philosophy is that if a sword is unmarked, it is very interesting speculating on who may have made it, but we will never know for sure.

Cheers,
Bryce

Norman McCormick · 8th June 2018, 06:34 PM

Hi,
1796 pattern L.C. officers sword manufactured between 1796 and 1801, G stamp visible as one of the langets has been broken off. I also have an 1821 pattern L.C. troopers sword with hilt, blade and scabbard marked to Osborn not Osborn's, there is no sign of a stamped G consistent with your findings.
Regards,
Norman.

7th June 2018, 03:34 AM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	G'day GC, Here are some better shots of the blade decoration on my Osborn 1796 light cavalry officer's sabre that I posted above. You have obviously spent a lot more time looking at the fine details on blade decoration than I have. My philosophy is that if a sword is unmarked, it is very interesting speculating on who may have made it, but we will never know for sure. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

8th June 2018, 06:34 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,646	Hi, 1796 pattern L.C. officers sword manufactured between 1796 and 1801, G stamp visible as one of the langets has been broken off. I also have an 1821 pattern L.C. troopers sword with hilt, blade and scabbard marked to Osborn not Osborn's, there is no sign of a stamped G consistent with your findings. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

6th June 2018, 06:44 AM	#1
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	G'Day GC, At this stage I have no idea why Osborn marked some blades with 1,2 or even 4 G's. If you have any theories I am all ears. As to whether or not all Osborn marked officer's blades have a G stamp I can say that every one in my collection does, every one in Richard Dellar's collection does, every one in several other collections does and every one I have come across on the internet with a clear shot of the ricasso does. The majority (possibly all?) Osborn and Gunby marked swords do as well. Originally I thought that Osborn and Gunby stopped marking blades with a G stamp at some stage. Now I am not so sure. The G stamps can be very difficult to spot even on a sword without langets. Can I be sure that 100% of Osborn marked swords have a G stamp? The answer is no, hence the appeal for other collectors to check their swords for G stamps as well. What I am confident of is that the vast majority, (if not all) of Osborn marked officer's swords have one. I am less confident about Osborn's troopers swords as I don't have any in my collection. Richard Dellar has one and he says it doesn't have a stamp. The problem is that troopers' swords are less common in our collections and most have langets. These G stamps can be very difficult to spot behind langets. With several of my own swords I have been convinced they didn't have stamps, only to have another harder look and discover they do have G stamps. Cheers, Bryce

6th June 2018, 07:42 AM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 535	My Osborn eagle pommel sword has a 12 stamp Most Osborn eagle pommel swords (decorated or not) do not seem to display a G stamp and as many but a few) Bolton eagle pommels do seem to surface with the G stamp. If you have already made up your mind and have run this by Dellar, I can only but continue to be unconvinced. It may take dismantling all these swords we have to look at tang marks as well. In the files I had linked and mentioned again is an example of the same etch pattern of your bright sword but done in b&g (a set with a prefix of ful in that Osborn folder). Look closely at the US eagles displayed and the subtle differences in etches, both bright and b&g needlework. You'll see the example of the b&g Osborn that mirrors your bright etch and if you bother looking at my Bolton folder, you will see many Bolton examples that mirrors that Bolton I posted with the bright etch. Again, my point that there does not seem to have been a single source of a blade supply and both (at times) appearing with G stamps. How much has Dellar delved into cutlers row in Birmingham and how many mills and foundries has he indexed? Curious minds and all that. To me, if a blade is unmarked as to a retailer or known maker, I can only go by trends of the components and blade decorations. It is not just Wells and Upson, nor Spies and Wolfe in the US but continued mysteries such as the John Salter generations and distributions. Osborn styled swords thought to be originating with Osborn and sold through all on that brief list. Also in my brief two decades of sword interests, as soon as I feel I have reached the pinnacle of understanding about a subject, more is surely to come. Let's see a complete history of Osborn's works to flesh out what is a nice bit of news copy but hardly conclusive (to me) that his smithys were producing those supposed thousands and that his work was above all others. Surely such information would be atop the cream of Birmingham history. As contrary as I may seem, I appreciate your thoughts and additional notes. If the G was not necessarily an Osborn specific trait but found on many blades of quality; would it not as easily be as some have pointed out that the G and GG were universally used as marks of quality regardless of who made the blade? Both Germany, Alsace and England used the word Warranted before proved, etc came along. Osborn may be one to have demonstrating a unified proofing system and as such the G and GG might denote proofing but again not necessarily only on his blades. With the use of G already explained to be in use in Germany..... wait we're going in a circle again Cheers GC

6th June 2018, 08:42 PM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	G'day GC, Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn? Cheers, Bryce