Odd piece-what is it?

Rick · 2nd April 2006, 03:42 AM

Certainly looks like a crude katar .
Is it of a size to be so ?
The eyes could be for binding it to the forearm with a cord .

Henk · 2nd April 2006, 07:57 AM

Looks like a katar to me as well. Maybe the experts on katar can tell us more.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd April 2006, 09:49 AM

I doubt that you will find many of these, but you can see one in Tirri’s book ‘Islamic Weapons’ page 297, figure 218 (see below).

Here is what he writes about it. “Jamadhar Nimcha is a short bladed Jamadhar (Katar). The short, three-to six-inch blade is usually proportionally wider.”

The fact that he shows it together with a katar from Sind, does not mean that they are both from Sind. Not all smiths were weapon smiths, but they could still make weapons.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd April 2006, 10:46 AM

I have a picture in one of my books of a katar, at least as curious as the one shown. It is in P. Holstein’s book ‘Contribution a l’etude des Armes Orientales, vol. I. Plate XIII, no 19.

Besides the way it looks, there is another strange thing about it. In the text to the figures it says, “Garsoe-katar (Bhoudj, Catch). Collection Henri Moser, actuellement au muse de Berne”. I have seen the Moser collection several times, but never seen the katar, so I contacted the curator of the department and asked about the katar, but he denied that a katar looking like that was in the Moser collection. So it seems as if it either disappeared shortly after Henri Moser had given the collection to the Historisches Museum in Bern, or an error was made in Holstein’s book. Strange also that it is called a ‘Garsoe-katar’ as a Garsoe-katar looks like the upper katar shown in post #4 from Tirri’s book. It is the way the sidebars are made which makes it a Garsoe-katar, and the one from the ‘Moser collection’ does not even have sidebars.

If we say that the width of the grip is the same as on a ‘normal’ katar about 7.5 cm then the blade would be about 17.5 cm and the total length 22.5 cm. The way the blade looks, this would make it a very heavy katar, and no doubt difficult to used without sidebars and with only one crossbar.

RSWORD · 2nd April 2006, 02:50 PM

Yes, it is of a size that it could be a Katar and given the additional information provided by Jens(thanks for the other example) I think we have figured this one out. I had given thought to this thing being a katar but just couldn't figure out what the holes were for. When you place your hands on the bar the two bars fall next to your forearm rather nicely and I can see how a leather strap would make for a very secure and stable weapon.

not2sharp · 3rd April 2006, 06:57 AM

Just thinking out-of-the-box, could this thing be part of some sort of horse briddle? In a part of the world where elephants were sometimes trained to fight with swords; anything, is possible.

n2s

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd April 2006, 10:18 AM

I don’t think it is part of a headstall for a horse, I think it is a katar, crude but still a katar. I think Rick’s suggestion sounds as if it is the right one, that it is for a string of some kind, to steady the arm when stabbing.

Mark · 3rd April 2006, 03:17 PM

Not an outrageous idea. However, I think the distance between the cross-bar and the tip of the blade make it unlikely. Given where the bar would fit into the horse's mouth (i.e., all the way back at the corners), the blade would not even protrude from the mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

Just thinking out-of-the-box, could this thing be part of some sort of horse briddle? In a part of the world where elephants were sometimes trained to fight with swords; anything, is possible.

n2s

2nd April 2006, 03:42 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	IMO Certainly looks like a crude katar . Is it of a size to be so ? The eyes could be for binding it to the forearm with a cord .

2nd April 2006, 09:49 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I doubt that you will find many of these, but you can see one in Tirri’s book ‘Islamic Weapons’ page 297, figure 218 (see below). Here is what he writes about it. “Jamadhar Nimcha is a short bladed Jamadhar (Katar). The short, three-to six-inch blade is usually proportionally wider.” The fact that he shows it together with a katar from Sind, does not mean that they are both from Sind. Not all smiths were weapon smiths, but they could still make weapons. Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 07:57 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Looks like a katar to me as well. Maybe the experts on katar can tell us more.

2nd April 2006, 10:46 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have a picture in one of my books of a katar, at least as curious as the one shown. It is in P. Holstein’s book ‘Contribution a l’etude des Armes Orientales, vol. I. Plate XIII, no 19. Besides the way it looks, there is another strange thing about it. In the text to the figures it says, “Garsoe-katar (Bhoudj, Catch). Collection Henri Moser, actuellement au muse de Berne”. I have seen the Moser collection several times, but never seen the katar, so I contacted the curator of the department and asked about the katar, but he denied that a katar looking like that was in the Moser collection. So it seems as if it either disappeared shortly after Henri Moser had given the collection to the Historisches Museum in Bern, or an error was made in Holstein’s book. Strange also that it is called a ‘Garsoe-katar’ as a Garsoe-katar looks like the upper katar shown in post #4 from Tirri’s book. It is the way the sidebars are made which makes it a Garsoe-katar, and the one from the ‘Moser collection’ does not even have sidebars. If we say that the width of the grip is the same as on a ‘normal’ katar about 7.5 cm then the blade would be about 17.5 cm and the total length 22.5 cm. The way the blade looks, this would make it a very heavy katar, and no doubt difficult to used without sidebars and with only one crossbar. Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 02:50 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Yes, it is of a size that it could be a Katar and given the additional information provided by Jens(thanks for the other example) I think we have figured this one out. I had given thought to this thing being a katar but just couldn't figure out what the holes were for. When you place your hands on the bar the two bars fall next to your forearm rather nicely and I can see how a leather strap would make for a very secure and stable weapon.

3rd April 2006, 06:57 AM	#6
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Just thinking out-of-the-box, could this thing be part of some sort of horse briddle? In a part of the world where elephants were sometimes trained to fight with swords; anything, is possible. n2s

3rd April 2006, 10:18 AM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I don’t think it is part of a headstall for a horse, I think it is a katar, crude but still a katar. I think Rick’s suggestion sounds as if it is the right one, that it is for a string of some kind, to steady the arm when stabbing.