Enquiry on keris motifs

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2018, 10:13 AM

Yes Gustav, the first commonly counted luk --- which is not really a luk at all --- is created by movement of the metal, not by reduction of the metal, or more correctly, by a combination of metal movement and metal reduction.

What happens is this:-
the forging at this point of manufacture is straight, so the maker positions the edge of the forging just above where the gandhik will be carved, onto the horn of the anvil, or onto a jig, or if using a traditional Javanese anvil, onto the vertical side of the traditional anvil, and bends the forging towards the gandhik side of the blade, this is the first step in creating the first luk in accordance with my proposed alternate method of counting.

He then reverses the position of the forging and places the opposite edge of the forging against the curved surface of the horn or whatever, and bends the forging back towards the wadidang, thus creating a full luk in the blade. This is what I mean by:-

" --- When the maker of the blade is forging it to shape he bends the forging away from and then back towards the wadidang side of the blade to create the first true wave in the blade ---"

The first bend he put into the blade has the effect of dragging the metal towards the gandhik. He does not set out to intentionally create that first slight negative indentation, it is a by product of producing the first full luk, which is now counted as luk 2.

In fact, all the luk in a blade are created by a combination of forging and carving, the finished forging is only roughly forged to shape, it provides a forging that the finished keris can be carved from.

There is another thing about forging things to shape that is sometimes overlooked by people who have not actually done this, and it is this:- working as an old-time smith worked is not an exact science, it is more in the order of a craft, or an art.

In forging a blade to shape we start with a pattern, this might be taken from an existing object or it might be taken from a drawing. The outline of what we want the finished item to look like is transferred onto a piece of sheet metal, and this is the pattern we work from when making the forging.
It is commonly placed across the anvil , or next to it, and the forging is manipulated as close as possible to the pattern by judgement, there is no time to measure every blow against the pattern, we work by eye, and when it looks more or less correct it is measured against the pattern. Sometimes it does not match the pattern well enough to permit a correctly shaped finished product to be cut from the forging, so then, if possible, the forging needs to manipulated in order to bring the metal to where it is needed. This movement of metal will be reflected in the grain of the metal, and sometimes some quite surprising and unexpected grain structures will result.

There is one very old blade classification --- I forget which one, I think maybe Kahuripan, I do not have access to my references at the moment --- where the metal grain frequently runs across the blade in the sorsoran. What the makers were doing to cause that I would not attempt to guess.

I think that perhaps my explanation above may make clear the reason for the grain movement shown in the sorsoran?

In fact, the visible grain of the metal simply records what the maker needed to do in order to achieve his desired result. It records what the maker needed to do in order to create that first true luk above the wadidang.

Gustav · 21st April 2018, 10:56 AM

Alan, thank you!

David · 21st April 2018, 01:44 PM

Thank you Gustav for your analysis of Paul's blade and thank you Alan for that explanation of forging. This has indeed been very interesting. While i do understand that threads do tend to develop tracks and directions of their own i would like to encourage that we now get back to the Anthony's original intention for this thread. Perhaps, Gustav, do you have some opinion of the origin of Paul's naga form blade and any ideas if it is a common form for that area or not?

Gustav · 21st April 2018, 11:17 PM

David, it's quite simple. Although my interest (at the moment) differ from Alan's in that I very much like some Sumatran and Peninsular Keris forms, for Nogo blades I am only into something, of which this one is a perfect example - Central Javanese, second part of 17th cent., high point of Kinatah work:

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...c+armor/515178

Later Nogo blade forms, even Javanese ones, are not my cup of tee.

Gustav · 21st April 2018, 11:43 PM

Regarding Paul's blade, I am afraid I cannot have an opinion, except, that the outline of Gonjo, widening towards Buntut, looks Bugis inspired. The blade is Javanese or is copying Javanese/Balinese motifs in a degree, which would be a little unusual for Nogo blades of this quality from outside of Java and Bali - there appears degenerative motif of Bintulu on Gandhik, the architectural element under Bintulu on Gonjo, the tree motif on Bawang Sebungkul. I have not seen any blade with Nogo Anom (?) outside of Java until now.

David · 22nd April 2018, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, it's quite simple. Although my interest (at the moment) differ from Alan's in that I very much like some Sumatran and Peninsular Keris forms, for Nogo blades I am only into something, of which this one is a perfect example - Central Javanese, second part of 17th cent., high point of Kinatah work:

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...c+armor/515178

Later Nogo blade forms, even Javanese ones, are not my cup of tee.

Thanks for that most beautiful example Gustav. I'm posting it here for more immediate access. While i can certainly see why this very specific time and style has caught your fancy i am personally open to more pedestrian forms of nogo blades, especially since i don't imagine that i would ever be able to acquire, or for that matter, even get to hold such a lovely example as this.

alexish · 22nd April 2018, 02:30 AM

Dear collectors,

with reference to the pictures in post 12 (malela-like keris nagas), has anyone seen the absence of scales on a naga tail, or gradual disappearance of scales along the tail, in keris nagas of other regions?

David · 22nd April 2018, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

Dear collectors,

with reference to the pictures in post 12 (malela-like keris nagas), has anyone seen the absence of scales on a naga tail, or gradual disappearance of scales along the tail, in keris nagas of other regions?

The short answer to this Alexis is yes.

22nd April 2018, 02:30 AM	#7
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Scales on Nagas Dear collectors, with reference to the pictures in post 12 (malela-like keris nagas), has anyone seen the absence of scales on a naga tail, or gradual disappearance of scales along the tail, in keris nagas of other regions?

21st April 2018, 10:13 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Gustav, the first commonly counted luk --- which is not really a luk at all --- is created by movement of the metal, not by reduction of the metal, or more correctly, by a combination of metal movement and metal reduction. What happens is this:- the forging at this point of manufacture is straight, so the maker positions the edge of the forging just above where the gandhik will be carved, onto the horn of the anvil, or onto a jig, or if using a traditional Javanese anvil, onto the vertical side of the traditional anvil, and bends the forging towards the gandhik side of the blade, this is the first step in creating the first luk in accordance with my proposed alternate method of counting. He then reverses the position of the forging and places the opposite edge of the forging against the curved surface of the horn or whatever, and bends the forging back towards the wadidang, thus creating a full luk in the blade. This is what I mean by:- " --- When the maker of the blade is forging it to shape he bends the forging away from and then back towards the wadidang side of the blade to create the first true wave in the blade ---" The first bend he put into the blade has the effect of dragging the metal towards the gandhik. He does not set out to intentionally create that first slight negative indentation, it is a by product of producing the first full luk, which is now counted as luk 2. In fact, all the luk in a blade are created by a combination of forging and carving, the finished forging is only roughly forged to shape, it provides a forging that the finished keris can be carved from. There is another thing about forging things to shape that is sometimes overlooked by people who have not actually done this, and it is this:- working as an old-time smith worked is not an exact science, it is more in the order of a craft, or an art. In forging a blade to shape we start with a pattern, this might be taken from an existing object or it might be taken from a drawing. The outline of what we want the finished item to look like is transferred onto a piece of sheet metal, and this is the pattern we work from when making the forging. It is commonly placed across the anvil , or next to it, and the forging is manipulated as close as possible to the pattern by judgement, there is no time to measure every blow against the pattern, we work by eye, and when it looks more or less correct it is measured against the pattern. Sometimes it does not match the pattern well enough to permit a correctly shaped finished product to be cut from the forging, so then, if possible, the forging needs to manipulated in order to bring the metal to where it is needed. This movement of metal will be reflected in the grain of the metal, and sometimes some quite surprising and unexpected grain structures will result. There is one very old blade classification --- I forget which one, I think maybe Kahuripan, I do not have access to my references at the moment --- where the metal grain frequently runs across the blade in the sorsoran. What the makers were doing to cause that I would not attempt to guess. I think that perhaps my explanation above may make clear the reason for the grain movement shown in the sorsoran? In fact, the visible grain of the metal simply records what the maker needed to do in order to achieve his desired result. It records what the maker needed to do in order to create that first true luk above the wadidang.

21st April 2018, 10:56 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, thank you!

21st April 2018, 01:44 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thank you Gustav for your analysis of Paul's blade and thank you Alan for that explanation of forging. This has indeed been very interesting. While i do understand that threads do tend to develop tracks and directions of their own i would like to encourage that we now get back to the Anthony's original intention for this thread. Perhaps, Gustav, do you have some opinion of the origin of Paul's naga form blade and any ideas if it is a common form for that area or not?

21st April 2018, 11:17 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	David, it's quite simple. Although my interest (at the moment) differ from Alan's in that I very much like some Sumatran and Peninsular Keris forms, for Nogo blades I am only into something, of which this one is a perfect example - Central Javanese, second part of 17th cent., high point of Kinatah work: http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...c+armor/515178 Later Nogo blade forms, even Javanese ones, are not my cup of tee.

21st April 2018, 11:43 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Regarding Paul's blade, I am afraid I cannot have an opinion, except, that the outline of Gonjo, widening towards Buntut, looks Bugis inspired. The blade is Javanese or is copying Javanese/Balinese motifs in a degree, which would be a little unusual for Nogo blades of this quality from outside of Java and Bali - there appears degenerative motif of Bintulu on Gandhik, the architectural element under Bintulu on Gonjo, the tree motif on Bawang Sebungkul. I have not seen any blade with Nogo Anom (?) outside of Java until now.