Enquiry on keris motifs

Paul de Souza · 20th April 2018, 11:10 AM

I have this Naga in Malay dress. I have always wondered if it is Peninsular or an imported Java blade. Can we tell the difference? What I like about it is how the Naga's body limits itself to the sogokan. Is there a law or adat for this? Which is more common - this body form or the full blade length body?

The sarong has no buntut I so did not show the whole sheath to meet upload limits.

Comments please.

alexish · 20th April 2018, 11:29 AM

Dear Paul,

This is supposed to be a Pattani Naga. What is your opinion?

Paul de Souza · 20th April 2018, 12:35 PM

I am sorry Alex but I have never seen a Patani Naga so I can't say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

Dear Paul,

This is supposed to be a Pattani Naga. What is your opinion?

Gustav · 20th April 2018, 05:44 PM

Paul, I have the impression, that the blade is seriously reshaped, perhaps already a longer time ago.

Sorsoran is very massive compare to the rest, (especially Gonjo seems to be really huge) and Luk previously could have been deeper.

What seems curious to me is, that the grain at the first Luk shows strong bending. Normally the very first Luk is carved, not bent.

Gustav · 20th April 2018, 06:43 PM

Actually when I look at the picture of Sorsoran, I see 3 different materials - Slorok (marked in blue), an Adeg grained layer, and a layer which comes above Adeg in the lower part of Sorsoran, we see it better on Wadidang side. Gonjo also is made from that material.

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2018, 01:53 AM

I cannot speak with any authority in respect of keris from areas other than Jawa, Bali, & Madura, but in these places the normal way in which all luk were and are put into a keris blade was and is by forging.

Some blades that have undergone revision, usually very inferior blades that have been reshaped for the souvenir market, may have had luk cut into them.

It is not at all unusual to find a blade, be it a keris blade or otherwise, that is comprised of several layers of material, in older Javanese blades, especially those blades that are classifiable as Mataram from around the Sultan Agung era, it is quite common to find a construction where the steel core has been inlet around the blade edges, the body of the blade will appear as relatively loosely grained iron, not dissimilar to common wrought iron, and the overlaying material will be tight, well compacted iron, sometimes with contrasting pamor, sometimes a simple sanak. In keris made specifically for combat from this era, sanak is the more common material.

I have put this blade under discussion into correct orientation for viewing, and I can see no evidence of reshaping. Proportions are well within accepted parameters for a relatively recent blade --- "relatively recent" = post 1850 in this context.

I am unwilling to state probable geographic point of origin from the photographs, but garap would not be out of place in East Jawa.

alexish · 21st April 2018, 05:52 AM

I hereby enclose some peninsular malay keris nagas with malela-like thick spine along the blade. One of these has no scales on the tail, while the other Naga blade has scales which gradually disappear along the thick spine of the keris. Any opinion?

Gustav · 21st April 2018, 06:27 AM

Alan - a question. In your paper you write about the first Luk:

"Similarly, the first wave counted is not a wave in the blade either; it is a slight undulation that
occurs on only one side of the blade. When the maker of the blade is forging it to shape he bends the
forging away from and then back towards the wadidang side of the blade to create the first true wave in
the blade:- a blade wave has two sides to it, a negative (concave) side, and a positive (convex) side. The
current convention used in counting blade waves ignores this fact and counts a slight undulation above
the gandhik as the first wave, and the straight section of blade at its point as the final wave."

As I understand it, it says, the first real bending occurs on the second Luk, on Wadidang side. So the first Luk would be shaped by carving?

Why the Adeg-like grain we see in this blade clearly bends away and then back to Gandhik side of the blade (between the blue lines in my picture), so the very first commonly counted Luk appears to be done by bending?

20th April 2018, 11:10 AM	#1
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	I have this Naga in Malay dress. I have always wondered if it is Peninsular or an imported Java blade. Can we tell the difference? What I like about it is how the Naga's body limits itself to the sogokan. Is there a law or adat for this? Which is more common - this body form or the full blade length body? The sarong has no buntut I so did not show the whole sheath to meet upload limits. Comments please. Attached Images

20th April 2018, 11:29 AM	#2
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Pattani Naga Dear Paul, This is supposed to be a Pattani Naga. What is your opinion? Attached Images

20th April 2018, 06:43 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Actually when I look at the picture of Sorsoran, I see 3 different materials - Slorok (marked in blue), an Adeg grained layer, and a layer which comes above Adeg in the lower part of Sorsoran, we see it better on Wadidang side. Gonjo also is made from that material. Attached Images

21st April 2018, 01:53 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I cannot speak with any authority in respect of keris from areas other than Jawa, Bali, & Madura, but in these places the normal way in which all luk were and are put into a keris blade was and is by forging. Some blades that have undergone revision, usually very inferior blades that have been reshaped for the souvenir market, may have had luk cut into them. It is not at all unusual to find a blade, be it a keris blade or otherwise, that is comprised of several layers of material, in older Javanese blades, especially those blades that are classifiable as Mataram from around the Sultan Agung era, it is quite common to find a construction where the steel core has been inlet around the blade edges, the body of the blade will appear as relatively loosely grained iron, not dissimilar to common wrought iron, and the overlaying material will be tight, well compacted iron, sometimes with contrasting pamor, sometimes a simple sanak. In keris made specifically for combat from this era, sanak is the more common material. I have put this blade under discussion into correct orientation for viewing, and I can see no evidence of reshaping. Proportions are well within accepted parameters for a relatively recent blade --- "relatively recent" = post 1850 in this context. I am unwilling to state probable geographic point of origin from the photographs, but garap would not be out of place in East Jawa. Attached Images

21st April 2018, 05:52 AM	#7
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Malay Nagas with Malela-like thick spines I hereby enclose some peninsular malay keris nagas with malela-like thick spine along the blade. One of these has no scales on the tail, while the other Naga blade has scales which gradually disappear along the thick spine of the keris. Any opinion? Attached Images

20th April 2018, 05:44 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Paul, I have the impression, that the blade is seriously reshaped, perhaps already a longer time ago. Sorsoran is very massive compare to the rest, (especially Gonjo seems to be really huge) and Luk previously could have been deeper. What seems curious to me is, that the grain at the first Luk shows strong bending. Normally the very first Luk is carved, not bent.

21st April 2018, 06:27 AM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan - a question. In your paper you write about the first Luk: "Similarly, the first wave counted is not a wave in the blade either; it is a slight undulation that occurs on only one side of the blade. When the maker of the blade is forging it to shape he bends the forging away from and then back towards the wadidang side of the blade to create the first true wave in the blade:- a blade wave has two sides to it, a negative (concave) side, and a positive (convex) side. The current convention used in counting blade waves ignores this fact and counts a slight undulation above the gandhik as the first wave, and the straight section of blade at its point as the final wave." As I understand it, it says, the first real bending occurs on the second Luk, on Wadidang side. So the first Luk would be shaped by carving? Why the Adeg-like grain we see in this blade clearly bends away and then back to Gandhik side of the blade (between the blue lines in my picture), so the very first commonly counted Luk appears to be done by bending?