Origin of this knife?

BSMStar · 31st March 2006, 06:22 PM

I am probably off base, but I cannot help but to see some similarities to the blade of a Kindjal...

eftihis · 1st April 2006, 05:18 AM

Hi,
The blade on this kindjal is new! It is a reproduction and it is not tempered. Yes, there are straight lines similar, but the similarities stop there.

BSMStar · 3rd April 2006, 06:50 PM

As I have stated, I am probably off base...

I know the Kindjal pictured is "new" piece and I am not making a comparison for age sake. I was looking at the shape of the blade... the "V" towards the tip of the blade. The oddity of your blade is the hilt location and the cutting edges of the blade. It is a bit like taking a "broken near the hilt" older Kindjal type blade and rehilting off center. Is the "back" of the blade wide or narrow?

These are just some observations of the ignorant.

A very nice and interesting piece!

Marc · 4th April 2006, 01:12 PM

Ok, my go at it, knives, and specially of such a late date, being a bit off my speciality...

The shape and decoration screams Spanish, Albacete, 19th. C, maybe even late 18th. Such fullers on the blade of these are not unusual, by the way.
Things that put me off: the Albacete knives had their metallic parts (aside from the blade, of course) made of brass/bronze, not silver, which is material more usually found in, for example, the South American "cuchillos criollos" ("Criollo" knives, sometimes also called "gaucho" knives). Also, the pommels, when present, tend to be smaller.
In short, it could be a variation, particularly rich, of an Albacete knife. My bets would surely go in this direction. If it would happen to be a "colonial" variation, improbable as I believe it to be, I wouldn't be surprised, tough.

My two euro cents...

Marc

fernando · 4th April 2006, 06:24 PM

HI Rob T
You might try this aproach.
A Venenoza, correctly spelled A Venenosa, meaning The Poisonous ( Venomous ) One. Not a knife mark, but one of these popular phrases usually seen on blades. The z sounds the same as the s, and was used in an earlier period. The term is the same in spanish, but maybe the z letter apoints to old fashion Portuguese from Brazil or Brasil.
Just a hint.
fernando

fernando · 4th April 2006, 07:36 PM

Forgive me, for i am an ignaro. Do i see any relation between these three and the knife questioned by Eftihis , plus all that was shown and said in the periphery?
The top one is surely brazilian, as it holds the sellers name and adress.
The center one, with a scabbard like the one in Oriental Arms, has a blade engraving " ENFIN " ( french for "at last" ), which diverts my guessing on its origin.
The bottom one, with a hilt mount again similar to the one pictured and described in Oriental Arms, is also a mistery for me.
I hope to learn further data on them, at following this thread.
Thanks
fernando

RobT · 5th April 2006, 02:43 AM

fernando,
Both of your posts have provided valuable information and much to think about. First, thanks for the venenoza translation. (It was spelled with a z on the knife by the way. I wrote it down while I was looking at the blade to make sure I got the correct spelling.) I had done a couple of internet searches to see if I couldn't find a manufacturer with that name. Now I know why I came up empty. Thanks to you I won't waste any more time in that direction. What's really interesting is that the middle knife you show in your second post has a hilt, crossguard, and sheath virtually identical to the "venenoza" knife. Even more curious is the French inscription on your knife.
I think the first knife you show is a Gaucho facon. I have seen a number of those from Brazil that are made for the tourist trade. Yours appears to be the real deal however. It's really nice looking.
The sheath of the last knife you show looks very much like the sheath for my Canary Island knife however the hilt of your knife looks more like a faca da ponta hilt than a Canary Island hilt and your blade lacks the Spanish notch. Whatever it is I'd really like to get one.
Sincerely,
RobT

31st March 2006, 06:22 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I am probably off base, but I cannot help but to see some similarities to the blade of a Kindjal... Attached Images

4th April 2006, 07:36 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Forgive me, for i am an ignaro. Do i see any relation between these three and the knife questioned by Eftihis , plus all that was shown and said in the periphery? The top one is surely brazilian, as it holds the sellers name and adress. The center one, with a scabbard like the one in Oriental Arms, has a blade engraving " ENFIN " ( french for "at last" ), which diverts my guessing on its origin. The bottom one, with a hilt mount again similar to the one pictured and described in Oriental Arms, is also a mistery for me. I hope to learn further data on them, at following this thread. Thanks fernando Attached Images

5th April 2006, 02:43 AM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 536	Invaluable Info fernando, Both of your posts have provided valuable information and much to think about. First, thanks for the venenoza translation. (It was spelled with a z on the knife by the way. I wrote it down while I was looking at the blade to make sure I got the correct spelling.) I had done a couple of internet searches to see if I couldn't find a manufacturer with that name. Now I know why I came up empty. Thanks to you I won't waste any more time in that direction. What's really interesting is that the middle knife you show in your second post has a hilt, crossguard, and sheath virtually identical to the "venenoza" knife. Even more curious is the French inscription on your knife. I think the first knife you show is a Gaucho facon. I have seen a number of those from Brazil that are made for the tourist trade. Yours appears to be the real deal however. It's really nice looking. The sheath of the last knife you show looks very much like the sheath for my Canary Island knife however the hilt of your knife looks more like a faca da ponta hilt than a Canary Island hilt and your blade lacks the Spanish notch. Whatever it is I'd really like to get one. Sincerely, RobT

1st April 2006, 05:18 AM	#2
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hi, The blade on this kindjal is new! It is a reproduction and it is not tempered. Yes, there are straight lines similar, but the similarities stop there.

3rd April 2006, 06:50 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	As I have stated, I am probably off base... I know the Kindjal pictured is "new" piece and I am not making a comparison for age sake. I was looking at the shape of the blade... the "V" towards the tip of the blade. The oddity of your blade is the hilt location and the cutting edges of the blade. It is a bit like taking a "broken near the hilt" older Kindjal type blade and rehilting off center. Is the "back" of the blade wide or narrow? These are just some observations of the ignorant. A very nice and interesting piece!

4th April 2006, 01:12 PM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Ok, my go at it, knives, and specially of such a late date, being a bit off my speciality... The shape and decoration screams Spanish, Albacete, 19th. C, maybe even late 18th. Such fullers on the blade of these are not unusual, by the way. Things that put me off: the Albacete knives had their metallic parts (aside from the blade, of course) made of brass/bronze, not silver, which is material more usually found in, for example, the South American "cuchillos criollos" ("Criollo" knives, sometimes also called "gaucho" knives). Also, the pommels, when present, tend to be smaller. In short, it could be a variation, particularly rich, of an Albacete knife. My bets would surely go in this direction. If it would happen to be a "colonial" variation, improbable as I believe it to be, I wouldn't be surprised, tough. My two euro cents... Marc

4th April 2006, 06:24 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	HI Rob T You might try this aproach. A Venenoza, correctly spelled A Venenosa, meaning The Poisonous ( Venomous ) One. Not a knife mark, but one of these popular phrases usually seen on blades. The z sounds the same as the s, and was used in an earlier period. The term is the same in spanish, but maybe the z letter apoints to old fashion Portuguese from Brazil or Brasil. Just a hint. fernando