Is this a common Arab Saif ?

fernando · 20th March 2018, 02:36 PM

Thank you all Gentlemen for your input,

And, by entry order ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

... is the blade chromed? Not the area of my collecting but a very nice sword. It would be a mess when the blade is indeed chromed!

...

Not chromed Detlef, only polished ... possibly with a power tool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

... Very nice saif from Southern Yemen. Elgood shows a few swords like this on pages 13 & 14 of his book on Arab arms, and Hales shows some on p.245, including a picture of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue with such swords. Both authors express a belief that these swords were actually manufactured in Hyderabad for the Yemen market.
What intrigues me about these saifs is the hilt, which has a grip that resembles the Omani/Zanzibari nimcha, but with an Ottoman influenced crossguard instead of multiple branching quillons....

Thank you Teodor; i am learning. I don't have those books; my only Elgood is on firearms. When i kew this was called a saif, i went on my Tirri and saw something of the kind in page 99. Oh, but i wish i had the pictures you mention from Elgood and Hales, specilly the one with the Sultan of Lahej.
Ah, the hilt top resembling the nimcha, Omani Zanzibar and, don't forget, Moroccan; the riddle of the egg and the hen, right ? Bu the way Teodor, can you quote futher paragraphs from those authors on the Hyderabad origin subject ?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Fernando you're a lucky man, this sword is superb.
Teodor is right and provided the good references.
But I don't think that these swords are from India but from Yemen.
They might have been used in India but not produced in India...
Fernando are you sure that you didn't buy the one from the Royal armouries?
Its almost the same and dated from 1771-1799....

Well, i was not expecting my example was as old as that in the Royal Armouries, but i will be most pleased that it dates as from the 19th century...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... There was a wide range of the “ luxuriousness” and this one indeed belongs to the upper 10%.
But IMHO we should all be enriched by seeing the whole gamut.
I have one from the same family, but it is too late to photograph it. Later, OK?...

Thanks much for the grading Ariel. I can't wait to see your family branch

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry Teodor. You are of course correct. Just old age creeping up and the brain goes sideways as a result...

Ah, the usual excuse, Stu; getting old and all that jazz; just don't let them brains fall down

.

TVV · 21st March 2018, 04:46 AM

Fernando, here is a short summary of what Elgood writes on these, He starts by stating that a lot of Arab swords loosely described as "nimsha" and "saif" get attributed to Yemen as so little is actually known about swords from the area, that most authors feel safe with that attribution on the basis that it is unlikely to be challenged. There are almost no sources before the 19th century describing Yemeni swords. When it comes to the type of sword like yours, it was initially attributed to Yemen by Charles Buttin. In the early 20th century the attribution was confirmed by Moser and Egerton based on what they were told by locals. Elgood then goes on to reference a photograph of a certain warrior from the Aden protectorate with such a sword, and then states that many warriors from Southern Yemen served as mercenaries in Hyderabad and "the swords are certainly made there and locally", there meaning Hyderabad. According to Elgood the motifs on the scabbard are Indian in style, not Yemeni. He also posts a picture of a fine sword that was a gift to George V in 1911 from the Sultan of Shihr and Mukalla. The sword is attributed to the 18th century, though Elgood has strong doubts it was actually made for the occasion.

Hales, given the nature of his book, is not nearly as expansive in his text as Elgood. He shows the afore mentioned photo of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue and three similar swords in their scabbards. Hales simply notes that the design and workmanship resembles jewelry from Hyderabad and points to strong historic links between Yemen and India.

Regards,
Teodor

fernando · 21st March 2018, 03:58 PM

Great input, Teodor: thanks a lot

.
It is always interesting (and challenging) to check on the difference between assuming the provenance of things as being an inequivocal fact, versus their transcontinental influence carried by those who travelled among nations for whatever reasons.
It is fascinating to realize that, this type of Saif would be Arab by culture, Yemenite by nationality, Moroccan (Zanzibarian) in its grip shape, its scabbard decoration styled (and even originated) in India, as could also so be the blade style ... and even forging.
Interestingly the historic Yemenite Jews (Temani), famous silver smiths, that we know used to make weapons scabbards, are not called by authors to this saga.

Let those with more knowledge, and willing, correct the (my) assumptions misplaced above

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TVV · 21st March 2018, 07:01 PM

Based on existing photographic evidence, I think it is fairly safe to attribute these swords to Southern Yemen. As for where the scabbards were manufactured, I will defer this to other form members - we have experts in Indian arms and their decorative art. As you point out, there were certainly enough highly skilled silversmiths in Yemen during the 19th century, who produced beautiful jambiya scabbards and various jewelry, and who certainly had the ability to produced sword scabbards as well.

Interestingly enough, Elgood does not mention much about the blades and their origin. They are invariably slightly curved, with a single fuller and relatively short. Unlike Maghrebi or Zanzibari/Omani nimcha hilted swords, which have a wide variety of blade shapes and lengths, these seem to follow a pattern.

fernando · 21st March 2018, 07:38 PM

Thank you for the excelent points, Teodor

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Kubur · 21st March 2018, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Based on existing photographic evidence, I think it is fairly safe to attribute these swords to Southern Yemen. As for where the scabbards were manufactured, I will defer this to other form members - we have experts in Indian arms and their decorative art. As you point out, there were certainly enough highly skilled silversmiths in Yemen during the 19th century, who produced beautiful jambiya scabbards and various jewelry, and who certainly had the ability to produced sword scabbards as well.

Pffff I feel better now

Fernando scabbard has some similarities with other Yemeni scabbards.
And if you look closer you'll see a consistency between hilts and scabbards...

Kubur · 21st March 2018, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Interestingly enough, Elgood does not mention much about the blades and their origin. They are invariably slightly curved, with a single fuller and relatively short. Unlike Maghrebi or Zanzibari/Omani nimcha hilted swords, which have a wide variety of blade shapes and lengths, these seem to follow a pattern.

Should I comment this blade?

A last point I think that Fernando blade is chromed not polished, but i don't see any problem with that.

TVV · 21st March 2018, 08:42 PM

We probably should, starting with the question - do you think the blade is original to the mounts? We know there were a lot of Ethiopian swords imported in Yemen for the rhino horn hilts, with the blades then mounted with a variety of hilts and re-sold.

21st March 2018, 04:46 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Fernando, here is a short summary of what Elgood writes on these, He starts by stating that a lot of Arab swords loosely described as "nimsha" and "saif" get attributed to Yemen as so little is actually known about swords from the area, that most authors feel safe with that attribution on the basis that it is unlikely to be challenged. There are almost no sources before the 19th century describing Yemeni swords. When it comes to the type of sword like yours, it was initially attributed to Yemen by Charles Buttin. In the early 20th century the attribution was confirmed by Moser and Egerton based on what they were told by locals. Elgood then goes on to reference a photograph of a certain warrior from the Aden protectorate with such a sword, and then states that many warriors from Southern Yemen served as mercenaries in Hyderabad and "the swords are certainly made there and locally", there meaning Hyderabad. According to Elgood the motifs on the scabbard are Indian in style, not Yemeni. He also posts a picture of a fine sword that was a gift to George V in 1911 from the Sultan of Shihr and Mukalla. The sword is attributed to the 18th century, though Elgood has strong doubts it was actually made for the occasion. Hales, given the nature of his book, is not nearly as expansive in his text as Elgood. He shows the afore mentioned photo of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue and three similar swords in their scabbards. Hales simply notes that the design and workmanship resembles jewelry from Hyderabad and points to strong historic links between Yemen and India. Regards, Teodor

21st March 2018, 03:58 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great input, Teodor: thanks a lot . It is always interesting (and challenging) to check on the difference between assuming the provenance of things as being an inequivocal fact, versus their transcontinental influence carried by those who travelled among nations for whatever reasons. It is fascinating to realize that, this type of Saif would be Arab by culture, Yemenite by nationality, Moroccan (Zanzibarian) in its grip shape, its scabbard decoration styled (and even originated) in India, as could also so be the blade style ... and even forging. Interestingly the historic Yemenite Jews (Temani), famous silver smiths, that we know used to make weapons scabbards, are not called by authors to this saga. Let those with more knowledge, and willing, correct the (my) assumptions misplaced above .

21st March 2018, 07:01 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Based on existing photographic evidence, I think it is fairly safe to attribute these swords to Southern Yemen. As for where the scabbards were manufactured, I will defer this to other form members - we have experts in Indian arms and their decorative art. As you point out, there were certainly enough highly skilled silversmiths in Yemen during the 19th century, who produced beautiful jambiya scabbards and various jewelry, and who certainly had the ability to produced sword scabbards as well. Interestingly enough, Elgood does not mention much about the blades and their origin. They are invariably slightly curved, with a single fuller and relatively short. Unlike Maghrebi or Zanzibari/Omani nimcha hilted swords, which have a wide variety of blade shapes and lengths, these seem to follow a pattern.

21st March 2018, 07:38 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for the excelent points, Teodor .

21st March 2018, 08:42 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	We probably should, starting with the question - do you think the blade is original to the mounts? We know there were a lot of Ethiopian swords imported in Yemen for the rhino horn hilts, with the blades then mounted with a variety of hilts and re-sold.