Translating text and date on a Ottoman dagger

Drabant1701 · 17th March 2018, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I have the same issue of lighter patches of wootz in more blades (see Persian Kard with discoloured patches near the koftgari on both sides). I suspect it is because of different heat treatment. Nothing unusual.

Lovely dagger!

Thanks! Your persian dagger is beautiful, Im putting one of those on the want list. As for light patches, yes most likley heat treatment. I have started to realize that once you have found the correct etchant for a specific blade, its best to just accept the result, any discolorizion on the blade, from heat treatment or other is part of the blades personality.

motan · 17th March 2018, 04:15 PM

Hi drabant1701,

Since I consider kubur much more knowledgeable than myself, you should trust his judgement on this better than mine.
Whenever I see a very old piece in great condition, and especially with things like koftgari that are prone to wear, it arouses some suspicion (and perhaps little jealousy too). It is just rare to find them like this, but not implausible. The history of storage and use are more important than age in determining the condition. The light patches around the koftgari may reflect something in the process of production, but more likely are the effect of repeated cleaning around the decoration to prevent wear.

mariusgmioc · 17th March 2018, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

I have started to realize that once you have found the correct etchant for a specific blade, its best to just accept the result, any discolorizion on the blade, from heat treatment or other is part of the blades personality.

I reached precisely the same conclusion!

What etchant do you use?

@ motan

The lighter patches are not the result of cleaning. They are intrinsic to the wootz, most probably the result of heat treatment different for the tip/edge and for the area near the hilt. I polished a couple of blades to mirror polish and etched them anew and got the same patches like before.

YataganMan · 17th March 2018, 07:47 PM

Hi every one,
The dagger and the scabbard are original produced in the eastern part of Turkey and ıts date is correct. What looks a little suspicious is the koftgari work and the heat treatment.In order to lay the infra structure for koftgari most hardened blades are heat treated (to normalise ) when it becomes easier to cross cut .The tell tale signs are that on a good blade koftgari work is restrained and no overflow of cross hatching is allowed.But over all ıts a good
knife to have.Congradulations
Yataganman

Drabant1701 · 18th March 2018, 01:07 PM

[QUOTE=mariusgmioc]I reached precisely the same conclusion!

What etchant do you use?

I dipped it 5-10 seconds i ferric chloride. Only one etching, etched super quick.
Then baking powder and lots of water, and lots of oil.

Drabant1701 · 29th May 2020, 05:34 PM

Two years have past since I made this post and now I finally got a translation of the text on the dagger. So for anyone who my find this thread in the future I will update the post. The translator said that he thought the scripture was from the kurds in Turkey and this is the translation he provided:

The first line reads:
The key is in the dagger that he placed in his armor
The second line reads:
The head of the prey is out there for everyone to see
The third line reads:
You, the young one, are where the lover heads to do his prayers.
The last sentence reads:
The idol whom we praise is her beautiful face.

I was hoping for the makers or the owners name, but this will do

Btw for some reason this page flips the text on the dagger so its upside down. I was going to repost the picture in this reply, but it allways ends up upside down no matter how i rotate it before I post

kwiatek · 29th May 2020, 10:48 PM

These verses are a variant of ones found on an earlier, 16th-century piece in the Museum of Applied Arts in Budapest. The person who read them for you has tried to make sense of them as Persian, whereas in fact they are in Turkish and read as follows:

Hatt değildür hanceri üzre görünen aşikâr

Katline ‘uşşakının içün hüccet çıkarmış ol nigâr

In English:

“What is visible on his dagger is not writing/the down on a cheek,

It is rather proof that the beautiful-faced one has produced for the murder of his beloveds.”

It’s hard to translate because it makes use of wordplay and belongs to the world of classical Turkish poetry that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you’re not familiar with the imagery. The dagger is compared to the beautiful face of the beautiful but cruel and indifferent beloved. In classical Persian and Turkish poetry the beloved’s face typically has a fine down on it, which is a sign that the beloved is in the bloom of youth and beauty. There is a wordplay in that the word for “down” is a also the word for “writing” (hatt). The poet says that in fact that what you see on the dagger/face is not down/writing, it is proof of the beloved’s murder of all of his lovers.

For the dagger in Budapest see the following link

https://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemen...emenyebol/1120

kronckew · 30th May 2020, 07:13 AM

Images frequently have hidden 'metadata' information added to the initial encoding to specify rotation, and info on exposure, colour types, and even photographer. Your graphics editor may have EXIF settings you can turn on or off.

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Drabant1701 · 30th May 2020, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

These verses are a variant of ones found on an earlier, 16th-century piece in the Museum of Applied Arts in Budapest. The person who read them for you has tried to make sense of them as Persian, whereas in fact they are in Turkish and read as follows:

Hatt değildür hanceri üzre görünen aşikâr

Katline ‘uşşakının içün hüccet çıkarmış ol nigâr

In English:

“What is visible on his dagger is not writing/the down on a cheek,

It is rather proof that the beautiful-faced one has produced for the murder of his beloveds.”

It’s hard to translate because it makes use of wordplay and belongs to the world of classical Turkish poetry that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you’re not familiar with the imagery. The dagger is compared to the beautiful face of the beautiful but cruel and indifferent beloved. In classical Persian and Turkish poetry the beloved’s face typically has a fine down on it, which is a sign that the beloved is in the bloom of youth and beauty. There is a wordplay in that the word for “down” is a also the word for “writing” (hatt). The poet says that in fact that what you see on the dagger/face is not down/writing, it is proof of the beloved’s murder of all of his lovers.

For the dagger in Budapest see the following link

https://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemen...emenyebol/1120

Thank you Kwiatek for clearing that up! I knew that the translator had a hard time making sense of it, but he gets an A for effort

And thank you Kronckew for flipping my photo!

motan · 30th May 2020, 01:15 PM

Hi Peter,
Museum quality and nice prose too. Excellent. Nothing to add to the words of the educated gentlemen, except that to me, the date looks like 1215, which translates to 1800/1801 Gregorian.

17th March 2018, 07:47 PM	#4
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	Ottoman Dagger Hi every one, The dagger and the scabbard are original produced in the eastern part of Turkey and ıts date is correct. What looks a little suspicious is the koftgari work and the heat treatment.In order to lay the infra structure for koftgari most hardened blades are heat treated (to normalise ) when it becomes easier to cross cut .The tell tale signs are that on a good blade koftgari work is restrained and no overflow of cross hatching is allowed.But over all ıts a good knife to have.Congradulations Yataganman

18th March 2018, 01:07 PM	#5
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	[QUOTE=mariusgmioc]I reached precisely the same conclusion! What etchant do you use? I dipped it 5-10 seconds i ferric chloride. Only one etching, etched super quick. Then baking powder and lots of water, and lots of oil. Last edited by Drabant1701; 18th March 2018 at 04:48 PM.

29th May 2020, 05:34 PM	#6
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Two years have past since I made this post and now I finally got a translation of the text on the dagger. So for anyone who my find this thread in the future I will update the post. The translator said that he thought the scripture was from the kurds in Turkey and this is the translation he provided: The first line reads: The key is in the dagger that he placed in his armor The second line reads: The head of the prey is out there for everyone to see The third line reads: You, the young one, are where the lover heads to do his prayers. The last sentence reads: The idol whom we praise is her beautiful face. I was hoping for the makers or the owners name, but this will do Btw for some reason this page flips the text on the dagger so its upside down. I was going to repost the picture in this reply, but it allways ends up upside down no matter how i rotate it before I post Attached Images Last edited by Drabant1701; 29th May 2020 at 05:49 PM.

29th May 2020, 10:48 PM	#7
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	These verses are a variant of ones found on an earlier, 16th-century piece in the Museum of Applied Arts in Budapest. The person who read them for you has tried to make sense of them as Persian, whereas in fact they are in Turkish and read as follows: Hatt değildür hanceri üzre görünen aşikâr Katline ‘uşşakının içün hüccet çıkarmış ol nigâr In English: “What is visible on his dagger is not writing/the down on a cheek, It is rather proof that the beautiful-faced one has produced for the murder of his beloveds.” It’s hard to translate because it makes use of wordplay and belongs to the world of classical Turkish poetry that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you’re not familiar with the imagery. The dagger is compared to the beautiful face of the beautiful but cruel and indifferent beloved. In classical Persian and Turkish poetry the beloved’s face typically has a fine down on it, which is a sign that the beloved is in the bloom of youth and beauty. There is a wordplay in that the word for “down” is a also the word for “writing” (hatt). The poet says that in fact that what you see on the dagger/face is not down/writing, it is proof of the beloved’s murder of all of his lovers. For the dagger in Budapest see the following link https://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemen...emenyebol/1120 Last edited by kwiatek; 30th May 2020 at 08:29 AM.

30th May 2020, 07:13 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	Images frequently have hidden 'metadata' information added to the initial encoding to specify rotation, and info on exposure, colour types, and even photographer. Your graphics editor may have EXIF settings you can turn on or off. EXIF Info for YOUR photo: [Camera] Camera Manufacturer : samsung Camera Model : SM-A520F Orientation : top-left (1) X Resolution : 72 Y Resolution : 72 Resolution unit : Inch Software : Microsoft Windows Photo Viewer 6.1.7600.16385 Date modified : 2020:05:29 18:44:09 YCbCr Positioning : centered (1) [Image] Exposure time [s] : 1/17 F-Number : 1.9 Exposure program : Normal (2) ISO speed ratings : 320 EXIF version : 02.20 Date taken : 2018:03:13 20:19:51 Date digitized : 2018:03:13 20:19:51 Components configuration : YCbCr Shutter speed [s] : 1/17 Aperture : F1.9 Brightness : -1.14 Exposure bias value : 0 Max aperture : F1.9 Metering mode : Center weight (2) Flash : No flash Focal length [mm] : 3.6 User comment : SubSecTime : 0165 SubSecTimeOriginal : 0165 SubSecTimeDigitized : 0165 FlashPix Version : 01.00 Colour space : sRGB EXIF image width : 1150 EXIF image length : 683 Interoperability offset : 5002 Exposure mode : Auto (0) White balance : Auto (0) Focal length (35mm) : 27 Scene capture type : Standard (0) Image unique ID : Close View (0) [IOP] IOP index : R98 IOP version : 0100 [Makernotes] [Thumbnail] Image width : 512 Image length : 384 Compression : 6 Orientation : bottom-right (3) X Resolution : 72 Y Resolution : 72 Resolution unit : Inch Thumbnail offset : 5192 Thumbnail length : 6666 'RIOT' optimized and rotated: EXIF data removed: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 30th May 2020 at 07:27 AM.

17th March 2018, 04:15 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi drabant1701, Since I consider kubur much more knowledgeable than myself, you should trust his judgement on this better than mine. Whenever I see a very old piece in great condition, and especially with things like koftgari that are prone to wear, it arouses some suspicion (and perhaps little jealousy too). It is just rare to find them like this, but not implausible. The history of storage and use are more important than age in determining the condition. The light patches around the koftgari may reflect something in the process of production, but more likely are the effect of repeated cleaning around the decoration to prevent wear.

30th May 2020, 01:15 PM	#10
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Peter, Museum quality and nice prose too. Excellent. Nothing to add to the words of the educated gentlemen, except that to me, the date looks like 1215, which translates to 1800/1801 Gregorian.