Moro Kris with Atypical Blade And A Borneo Kris For Sharing

Ian · 5th March 2018, 09:40 PM

Hi AP:

Two nice examples you found!

The first one with the broad straight blade is a blade profile we have seen here before. I recall another example about 12-15 years ago, perhaps on the old UBB forum (presently out of action). To me the ensemble looks Maguindanao with a bone kakatua of typical shape and the gangya area is one of two styles that Cato has attributed to the Maguindanao. The cord wrap is non-specific, but again consistent with work from the same group. I would put this one as mid- to late-19th C, with a more recent hilt.

The second one could well be older and I don't think it is typical Moro work. Mention has been made of the hexagonal cross section to the blade and beveled edges, while this particular small kakatua looks atypical for the area. I think Lee Jones has a sword with a similar hilt and in the discussion of his sword I believe that someone posted another old kris with a blade similar to this one. IIRCC the consensus on Lee's sword was that it came from Borneo or Malaysia. I've tried looking for the discussion of Lee's sword but it may also be on the old UBB site.

Thanks for posting these.

Ian

Sajen · 5th March 2018, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The first one with the broad straight blade is a blade profile we have seen here before.

Have a look to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+saber

Aslan Paladin · 5th March 2018, 10:50 PM

I think this is a similar blade type http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10237

kai · 5th March 2018, 11:44 PM

I'd posit that we're actually seeing 2 (or even 3) blade styles here:

1a. Basically a fairly typical Moro kris: a pretty much straight, double-edged blade with only slightly asymmetrical edges and tip (since non-archaic Moro kris are rarely utilized for stabbing, this doesn't really change the ergonomics that much. Albert's piece and the one from the Tropenmuseum in this thread are good examples.

1b. This variant conforms to the definition given above for 1a. However, the blade tends to be shorter with a pronounced belly: Pretty much a cross-breed between a Moro kris and a barung. Here is an old example from Holstein.

2. A long, curved sabre blade (often a repurposed import blade to which a Moro base with gangya got attached by forging); usually single-edged (or with a limited false edge). Here is an example.

Type #2 often looks a bit crudely worked and they seem to appear during the late 19th century while the other variants appear to be older, genuine Moro styles.

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 6th March 2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Have a look to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+saber

Thanks Detlef. Yes, I recall that discussion and that sword. The one I have in mind had the same shaped blade as the subject of this post and was shown by Justin on the old UBB forum. It was so similar it could have come from the same panday. Unfortunately, that forum is damaged and unavailable at present.

Kai, your classification looks good to me. The traditional straight-bladed kris (a sundang or other local names--see Cato, etc.) has a spear point that distinguishes it from these other variants. On some late 19th C and later examples of the traditional straight form (usually Mindanao kris in my experience) the spear point is less rounded and more V-shaped, as if it were intended for a stabbing action.

Attached are pictures of a 20th C Mindanao sword. It is partly waved and mostly straight. My reasons for posting it are the similarity in hilt style and components—bone or stag kakatua, cord-wrapped hilt—to one in the original post, and the V-shaped tip I mentioned above. This one does not have a separate gangya.

The vendor's tag from 20+ years ago was still attached. It came from an arts and crafts store in Intramuros, Manila. Although advertised as "Maranao" this one would fit more closely with Cato's classification of Maguindanao.

Ian.

Battara · 6th March 2018, 11:47 PM

I agree with Ian on this being Maguindanao.

Also your saber kris I don't think was ever an imported blade, just a rare blade. As far as we can tell, it seems to go back into the 1800s.

F. de Luzon · 23rd March 2018, 02:53 PM

Nice collection, Aslan Paladin!

Fernando

ACP · 27th March 2018, 04:06 PM

Is there a specific way to determine if the kris is a moro blade compared to an indonesian blade or even a malaysian keris?

ACP · 7th April 2018, 08:51 PM

The reason I was asking is because I have the exact same type of kris and it made me wonder if these swords are variants of imported swords that were retrofitted to suit local palates. From what I can see the pommels were shaped in the heads of the sarimanok, legendary jungle fowls attributed with supernatural powers

27th March 2018, 04:06 PM	#8
ACP Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Western Visayas Philippines Posts: 16	Query Is there a specific way to determine if the kris is a moro blade compared to an indonesian blade or even a malaysian keris?

5th March 2018, 09:40 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Hi AP: Two nice examples you found! The first one with the broad straight blade is a blade profile we have seen here before. I recall another example about 12-15 years ago, perhaps on the old UBB forum (presently out of action). To me the ensemble looks Maguindanao with a bone kakatua of typical shape and the gangya area is one of two styles that Cato has attributed to the Maguindanao. The cord wrap is non-specific, but again consistent with work from the same group. I would put this one as mid- to late-19th C, with a more recent hilt. The second one could well be older and I don't think it is typical Moro work. Mention has been made of the hexagonal cross section to the blade and beveled edges, while this particular small kakatua looks atypical for the area. I think Lee Jones has a sword with a similar hilt and in the discussion of his sword I believe that someone posted another old kris with a blade similar to this one. IIRCC the consensus on Lee's sword was that it came from Borneo or Malaysia. I've tried looking for the discussion of Lee's sword but it may also be on the old UBB site. Thanks for posting these. Ian

5th March 2018, 10:50 PM	#3
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	I think this is a similar blade type http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10237

5th March 2018, 11:44 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	I'd posit that we're actually seeing 2 (or even 3) blade styles here: 1a. Basically a fairly typical Moro kris: a pretty much straight, double-edged blade with only slightly asymmetrical edges and tip (since non-archaic Moro kris are rarely utilized for stabbing, this doesn't really change the ergonomics that much. Albert's piece and the one from the Tropenmuseum in this thread are good examples. 1b. This variant conforms to the definition given above for 1a. However, the blade tends to be shorter with a pronounced belly: Pretty much a cross-breed between a Moro kris and a barung. Here is an old example from Holstein. 2. A long, curved sabre blade (often a repurposed import blade to which a Moro base with gangya got attached by forging); usually single-edged (or with a limited false edge). Here is an example. Type #2 often looks a bit crudely worked and they seem to appear during the late 19th century while the other variants appear to be older, genuine Moro styles. Regards, Kai

6th March 2018, 11:47 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I agree with Ian on this being Maguindanao. Also your saber kris I don't think was ever an imported blade, just a rare blade. As far as we can tell, it seems to go back into the 1800s.

23rd March 2018, 02:53 PM	#7
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Nice collection, Aslan Paladin! Fernando

7th April 2018, 08:51 PM	#9
ACP Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Western Visayas Philippines Posts: 16	The reason I was asking is because I have the exact same type of kris and it made me wonder if these swords are variants of imported swords that were retrofitted to suit local palates. From what I can see the pommels were shaped in the heads of the sarimanok, legendary jungle fowls attributed with supernatural powers