Mystery solved and started!

M ELEY · 2nd March 2018, 03:04 AM

Opps! Totally missed your post, Fernando! Thanks for responding. I'm hoping the 'R' does stand for regiment, as that might help me track down the troop. I was quite surprised that the Jager corps had a great impact on many of the battles of the American Revolution. They came from multiple regions of the old Germanic empire and were exemplary in helping their British allies turn many of the tides of battle. here is a great article on them-

http://allthingsliberty.com/2015/the...nia-1776-1777/

I understand there is a possibility that there could be initials, but as you pointed out, not too many German names ending in 'X'. Curiously, these markings are etched, not stamped as an official marking would be, unless done afterwards, as you pointed out, perhaps in reverence to a squad or troop. I can say that the pics do distort the etch a bit and I believe that both marks are made in the same style and by the same hand (whether contemporary with the weapon or much later, who knows?). I thought of museum acquisition numbers as well until I thought about it (DUH!), they wouldn't permanently mar an item in a collection in this way. In any case, it is exciting to try and research, even if it amounts to not much.

Victrix · 2nd March 2018, 08:29 AM

Could it be a combination of roman and ”arabic” numericals so that it stands for Regiment X (i.e. 10), and then company number 2?

Interesting article. I did not know so many German troops served in the American War of Independence. Interesting that the Jägers lack of bayonets was perceived as a weakness. The text mentions they were armed with hirschfängers and not hangers. Did you check out this website mentioned in the bibliography: “Edged weapons of the Hesse-Kassel Jäger Korps,” http://www.jaegerkorps.org/, accessed Dec. 9, 2014.?

fernando · 2nd March 2018, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... Could it be a combination of roman and ”arabic” numericals so that it stands for Regiment X (i.e. 10), and then company number 2? ...

That was one of my thoughts, but i abandoned the idea, as not so practicable in that side of the world ... i would guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

...Interesting that the Jägers lack of bayonets was perceived as a weakness. The text mentions they were armed with hirschfängers and not hangers...

Precisely. You may also see in Neumannn's a nice drawing of a German field Jaeger, circa 1780, in page 61; equipped with a hirschfänger (hunting sword).

.

M ELEY · 2nd March 2018, 11:45 AM

Thanks, gents, for your knowledge and opinions.

Victrix, I tried accessing those articles before and most are now defunct. I will do a general search for that title and see what comes up.

I had seen that pic from Neumann's as well, so i remain confused. Peterson shows a drawing of a sword exactly matching my sword, with bird head solid brass hilt, no grooves or pommel, "rectangular" guard and a blade measuring exactly 22". Next to that pic, he had another brass hilted sword, so perhaps there were several patterns? As far as the word 'hirschfanger', the generic form is a straight-bladed field piece, typically with plain brass hilt, so I would say that the sword discussed is still in the ballpark-

Hangers of the 17th and early 18th c. were by definition 'hunting swords. Likewise, I don't know if the illustrator for this depiction saw the definition of 'plain straight brass hirschfanger' and took artistic license. Then again, I don't know if Peterson could also be incorrect in his drawing.

Does anyone have H. Peterson's book to print the pages I mentioned above? My skills with the digital camera are terrifying!

M ELEY · 3rd March 2018, 05:54 AM

Here's the site for the Jaeger Korps re-in actors. Again, I understand the mention of hirschfanger brings up a generic image of the many types of hunting implements, as shown on the site. I still can't get past, however, Harold Peterson's very descriptive narrative and image. You will also note that the swords on this site are for reference only, as some are not German, some are 19th century, etc. Adding to this confusion is the fact that the Jagers were around all the way up through the 20th century! Obviously, uniforms and accouterments would change over time. I know I sound like I'm fighting the possibility that this isn't a jaeger sword. I'm really not as I win either way (if not a jaeger, I can continue to classify it as a brass hilted hanger cum cutlass. If it is the sword used by the elite group, that that is fine too). I may never find out what the markings are or even if this piece saw action during the Rev War, but I just hope I can solve the fundamental question of is it or isn't it!

http://www.jaegerkorps.org/blankwaffen.html :

Victrix · 3rd March 2018, 02:10 PM

It would make sense for Jägers to carry hirschfängers, or hunting swords, as they were often recruited from hunters. But the source which claims they carried hirschfängers seems dubious. Perhaps the author just felt like popping in a German word? The best way would be to look for contemporary graphic illustrations of Hessian Jägers to form a view of how they were armed. Not sure they are to be viewed as ”elite” though. In those days the elite were the guards regiments propped full with aristocracy and embellished with glamorous uniforms and equipment. The Jägers were probably perceived as rather less glamorous at that time. The sword you showed us looks lika an infantry hanger rather than a hirschfänger. Could it not have been used by the Hessian grenadier regiments (which were probably regarded as more exclusive at that time)?

M ELEY · 3rd March 2018, 09:30 PM

Excellent points, Victrix. I will try and start researching contemporary paintings for more information. You also bring up a good point concerning the usage of the word hirschfanger. At that time, it was a hanger, plain and simple, not the horn gripped, saw back types we're used to seeing after the close of the 18th century. Perhaps Peterson did indeed draw and describe another hanger type carried by grenadiers or a similar branch of Hessians. I find it too hard to believe, however, that he arbitrarily made up this pattern as being German or not somehow affiliated with the Hessian troops.

fernando · 2nd March 2018, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Opps! Totally missed your post, Fernando! ...

Well, i must say i was shooting in the dark ... partly. I have this fixation that the R is for Regiment; as consistent with the term 'regimental marks'.
Now that you mention Neumann, i reflect my reasoning in page 177, where a Horseman sabre (Item 348.SS) is marked 3 RG LD NO 35 3-T. Doesn't that three digits set sound like 3th Regiment ? The two following letters referring the troop service, like Light Dragoons or Delaware Line. Then the last part would refer the rack or, more possibly (for me) the serviceman number. Note that the NO (for number) doesn't have a dot.
I will here upload the marks of a couple XIX century Portuguese pistols i used to own, where you see that both Regiment and rack numbers are perfectly intelligible.

.

2nd March 2018, 11:45 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Thanks, gents, for your knowledge and opinions. Victrix, I tried accessing those articles before and most are now defunct. I will do a general search for that title and see what comes up. I had seen that pic from Neumann's as well, so i remain confused. Peterson shows a drawing of a sword exactly matching my sword, with bird head solid brass hilt, no grooves or pommel, "rectangular" guard and a blade measuring exactly 22". Next to that pic, he had another brass hilted sword, so perhaps there were several patterns? As far as the word 'hirschfanger', the generic form is a straight-bladed field piece, typically with plain brass hilt, so I would say that the sword discussed is still in the ballpark- Hangers of the 17th and early 18th c. were by definition 'hunting swords. Likewise, I don't know if the illustrator for this depiction saw the definition of 'plain straight brass hirschfanger' and took artistic license. Then again, I don't know if Peterson could also be incorrect in his drawing. Does anyone have H. Peterson's book to print the pages I mentioned above? My skills with the digital camera are terrifying! Last edited by M ELEY; 2nd March 2018 at 10:07 PM.

2nd March 2018, 03:04 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Opps! Totally missed your post, Fernando! Thanks for responding. I'm hoping the 'R' does stand for regiment, as that might help me track down the troop. I was quite surprised that the Jager corps had a great impact on many of the battles of the American Revolution. They came from multiple regions of the old Germanic empire and were exemplary in helping their British allies turn many of the tides of battle. here is a great article on them- http://allthingsliberty.com/2015/the...nia-1776-1777/ I understand there is a possibility that there could be initials, but as you pointed out, not too many German names ending in 'X'. Curiously, these markings are etched, not stamped as an official marking would be, unless done afterwards, as you pointed out, perhaps in reverence to a squad or troop. I can say that the pics do distort the etch a bit and I believe that both marks are made in the same style and by the same hand (whether contemporary with the weapon or much later, who knows?). I thought of museum acquisition numbers as well until I thought about it (DUH!), they wouldn't permanently mar an item in a collection in this way. In any case, it is exciting to try and research, even if it amounts to not much.

2nd March 2018, 08:29 AM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Could it be a combination of roman and ”arabic” numericals so that it stands for Regiment X (i.e. 10), and then company number 2? Interesting article. I did not know so many German troops served in the American War of Independence. Interesting that the Jägers lack of bayonets was perceived as a weakness. The text mentions they were armed with hirschfängers and not hangers. Did you check out this website mentioned in the bibliography: “Edged weapons of the Hesse-Kassel Jäger Korps,” http://www.jaegerkorps.org/, accessed Dec. 9, 2014.?

3rd March 2018, 05:54 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Here's the site for the Jaeger Korps re-in actors. Again, I understand the mention of hirschfanger brings up a generic image of the many types of hunting implements, as shown on the site. I still can't get past, however, Harold Peterson's very descriptive narrative and image. You will also note that the swords on this site are for reference only, as some are not German, some are 19th century, etc. Adding to this confusion is the fact that the Jagers were around all the way up through the 20th century! Obviously, uniforms and accouterments would change over time. I know I sound like I'm fighting the possibility that this isn't a jaeger sword. I'm really not as I win either way (if not a jaeger, I can continue to classify it as a brass hilted hanger cum cutlass. If it is the sword used by the elite group, that that is fine too). I may never find out what the markings are or even if this piece saw action during the Rev War, but I just hope I can solve the fundamental question of is it or isn't it! http://www.jaegerkorps.org/blankwaffen.html :

3rd March 2018, 02:10 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	It would make sense for Jägers to carry hirschfängers, or hunting swords, as they were often recruited from hunters. But the source which claims they carried hirschfängers seems dubious. Perhaps the author just felt like popping in a German word? The best way would be to look for contemporary graphic illustrations of Hessian Jägers to form a view of how they were armed. Not sure they are to be viewed as ”elite” though. In those days the elite were the guards regiments propped full with aristocracy and embellished with glamorous uniforms and equipment. The Jägers were probably perceived as rather less glamorous at that time. The sword you showed us looks lika an infantry hanger rather than a hirschfänger. Could it not have been used by the Hessian grenadier regiments (which were probably regarded as more exclusive at that time)?

3rd March 2018, 09:30 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Excellent points, Victrix. I will try and start researching contemporary paintings for more information. You also bring up a good point concerning the usage of the word hirschfanger. At that time, it was a hanger, plain and simple, not the horn gripped, saw back types we're used to seeing after the close of the 18th century. Perhaps Peterson did indeed draw and describe another hanger type carried by grenadiers or a similar branch of Hessians. I find it too hard to believe, however, that he arbitrarily made up this pattern as being German or not somehow affiliated with the Hessian troops.