should I or shouldn't I change and repair

kai · 17th February 2018, 05:54 PM

Hello David,

Actually, I was going from memory which can be a bit dangerous...

Here some auction pics for future reference.

Regards,
Kai

David · 17th February 2018, 06:53 PM

Thanks Kai. I don't think i ever viewed the auction page, so all i had to go by was the images posted here by Green. The hilt is a bit nicer than i was able to see in Green's photos. A bit more damage than just the nick on the nose though. That's a nasty crack at the base. The blade is also better than i could see as well, though well worn and in need of a cleaning i would think.

"IMVHO Edward Frey was one of the (many) early keris enthusiasts and took some effort to do a literature survey of available publications, visited some notable museum collections and, after 2 years (and over 30 years of collecting), published a small book. While it would not be fair to judge a publication which is over 30 years old by current knowledge, I do not see any notable ethnographic discoveries disclosed - it's more of a review of already known facts thought to be well established at the time of writing. Thus, I don't see much of a legacy which could stipulate to keep this keris as found."

If it were mine i would still be inclined to leave it in this configuration. Green was not the only collector who seemed excited to receive pieces from the Frey collection. I have been on many other keris sites and pages where other keris collectors were talking excitedly about that auction and vying for pieces. I certainly would not disagree with your over all assessment of the importance, or lack thereof, of Frey regarding any groundbreaking discoveries or revelations on keris culture, but many, if not most avid collectors have his book and it served as an important part of their beginning studies. Regardless of the fact that his writings are less than groundbreaking (and sometimes outright wrong) i still feel that many people still hold him in some form of regard and enjoy owning a keris that had once been his. How that translates to added value is not really clear. I know that the one Frey keris that i own i appreciate first and foremost because it is indeed a beautiful and unique Bali keris. However, i do still enjoy the fact that it graces the cover of an old edition of Arts of Asia and was once apparently one of Frey's favorites.

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2018, 08:19 PM

The comments I made in post #7 were ill considered.

I based those comments on Green's photos, and the opinion I formed from those photos was that I would not give this keris house-room, I'd get rid of it as quickly as possible.

I was wrong.
This is a nice keris.

There was a time when I refused to make a comment or give an opinion unless the photos provided for comment were adequate to allow me to form a supportable opinion. My standards have slipped, it seems I have made comments in the recent past where my opinion was based upon less than adequate photos.

Thank you for the decent images Kai, and the lesson.

I retract my previous opinion, and reserve my present opinion. I would like to see the fit of the blade to the wrongko before commenting again.

kai · 17th February 2018, 09:31 PM

Hello Alan,

These are the only pics allowing a bit of info on the fit - I'd love to hear what Nik believes from personally handling this keris though?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2018, 12:02 AM

My current opinion:- leave as is

Some time during the 1970's, or maybe late 1960's, the Australian museum in Sydney accommodated an exhibition of Malay culture that included some keris, one of these keris had a reversed tajong hilt and a wrongko of the same form as Nik's wrongko.

I'm not really all that interested in keris from this part of the world, and do not know much about them but it seems to me that maybe it was/is legitimate to use this type of wrongko and blade together with a tajong hilt. Perhaps some local research has been done on this matter?

Paul de Souza · 18th February 2018, 05:08 AM

I think the piece should be kept as it is; a keris from the Edward Frey Collection.

Judging from the pictures provided by Kai, it would seem that the sheath was not made for the blade. The gaps between the blade and sheath at the aring and dagu (kepala cecak) ends, the gap between the blade and the sampir at the neck of the kepala cecak (wurung?) and the way the aring hovers so high above sampir tells me so. I hope I remember the terms correctly.

In addition, the normal blade one would expect with a Tajong would be a pandai saras. Notwithstanding this, it is not uncommon to find a southern /riau "bugis" inspired blade in northern pieces. Just that I would expect a pandai saras with a tajong hilt.

Given the circumstances, best to leave it as it is and celebrate the provenance. Not many can do that with a keris.

I like the gold leaf accent on some parts of the hilt - pity it did not remain intact and it seem to be applied to only one side. An experimentation?

kai · 18th February 2018, 12:50 PM

Hello Paul,

Quote:

I like the gold leaf accent on some parts of the hilt - pity it did not remain intact and it seem to be applied to only one side.

From the remaining highlights it does seem to have been present on both sides. Possibly it wore off more on one side during active use.

Regards,
Kai

17th February 2018, 05:54 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello David, Actually, I was going from memory which can be a bit dangerous... Here some auction pics for future reference. Regards, Kai Attached Images

17th February 2018, 06:53 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Kai. I don't think i ever viewed the auction page, so all i had to go by was the images posted here by Green. The hilt is a bit nicer than i was able to see in Green's photos. A bit more damage than just the nick on the nose though. That's a nasty crack at the base. The blade is also better than i could see as well, though well worn and in need of a cleaning i would think. "IMVHO Edward Frey was one of the (many) early keris enthusiasts and took some effort to do a literature survey of available publications, visited some notable museum collections and, after 2 years (and over 30 years of collecting), published a small book. While it would not be fair to judge a publication which is over 30 years old by current knowledge, I do not see any notable ethnographic discoveries disclosed - it's more of a review of already known facts thought to be well established at the time of writing. Thus, I don't see much of a legacy which could stipulate to keep this keris as found." If it were mine i would still be inclined to leave it in this configuration. Green was not the only collector who seemed excited to receive pieces from the Frey collection. I have been on many other keris sites and pages where other keris collectors were talking excitedly about that auction and vying for pieces. I certainly would not disagree with your over all assessment of the importance, or lack thereof, of Frey regarding any groundbreaking discoveries or revelations on keris culture, but many, if not most avid collectors have his book and it served as an important part of their beginning studies. Regardless of the fact that his writings are less than groundbreaking (and sometimes outright wrong) i still feel that many people still hold him in some form of regard and enjoy owning a keris that had once been his. How that translates to added value is not really clear. I know that the one Frey keris that i own i appreciate first and foremost because it is indeed a beautiful and unique Bali keris. However, i do still enjoy the fact that it graces the cover of an old edition of Arts of Asia and was once apparently one of Frey's favorites. Last edited by David; 17th February 2018 at 10:37 PM.

17th February 2018, 09:31 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, These are the only pics allowing a bit of info on the fit - I'd love to hear what Nik believes from personally handling this keris though? Regards, Kai Attached Images

17th February 2018, 08:19 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The comments I made in post #7 were ill considered. I based those comments on Green's photos, and the opinion I formed from those photos was that I would not give this keris house-room, I'd get rid of it as quickly as possible. I was wrong. This is a nice keris. There was a time when I refused to make a comment or give an opinion unless the photos provided for comment were adequate to allow me to form a supportable opinion. My standards have slipped, it seems I have made comments in the recent past where my opinion was based upon less than adequate photos. Thank you for the decent images Kai, and the lesson. I retract my previous opinion, and reserve my present opinion. I would like to see the fit of the blade to the wrongko before commenting again.

18th February 2018, 12:02 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	My current opinion:- leave as is Some time during the 1970's, or maybe late 1960's, the Australian museum in Sydney accommodated an exhibition of Malay culture that included some keris, one of these keris had a reversed tajong hilt and a wrongko of the same form as Nik's wrongko. I'm not really all that interested in keris from this part of the world, and do not know much about them but it seems to me that maybe it was/is legitimate to use this type of wrongko and blade together with a tajong hilt. Perhaps some local research has been done on this matter?

18th February 2018, 05:08 AM	#6
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	I think the piece should be kept as it is; a keris from the Edward Frey Collection. Judging from the pictures provided by Kai, it would seem that the sheath was not made for the blade. The gaps between the blade and sheath at the aring and dagu (kepala cecak) ends, the gap between the blade and the sampir at the neck of the kepala cecak (wurung?) and the way the aring hovers so high above sampir tells me so. I hope I remember the terms correctly. In addition, the normal blade one would expect with a Tajong would be a pandai saras. Notwithstanding this, it is not uncommon to find a southern /riau "bugis" inspired blade in northern pieces. Just that I would expect a pandai saras with a tajong hilt. Given the circumstances, best to leave it as it is and celebrate the provenance. Not many can do that with a keris. I like the gold leaf accent on some parts of the hilt - pity it did not remain intact and it seem to be applied to only one side. An experimentation?