Interesting Toradar Barrel

kai · 10th February 2018, 01:25 AM

Hello Thomas,

Quote:

from the pictures I‘m afraid that this is a just etched structure and there will be a risk to polish and clean them away.

I believe I do see some cold shuts on the pics and believe this really is a forged pattern!

I also don't think that Leo Figiel would have mistaken a fake/etched pattern for the real thing...

Quote:

The “round“ structure which looks like a wheel or a half cut orange will be possible to make as a round bar, not impossible. But making opposite cuts and fold it out will not result such a clear, undeformed pattern with one round near the other. Cutting such a bar into slices and weld let me say 30 pieces side by side on a flat different steel is possible but the weld will not so good that you ca make a long enough bar to bend it round to make a barrel.

The approach won't work as pictured - I think there is a step missing/implicated: First, the rod will need an additional layer of iron with the final cross-section being square (without distorting the circular core). Then you need to completely cut through the circular core but keep a thin outer layer for flattening out the zig-zag folds into a band. In the final configuration on the barrel, there also seems to be a slightly thicker interspersing "line" for fusing the spirally arranged pattern-welded band.

Regards,
Kai

archer · 10th February 2018, 02:50 AM

Thank you all for your input I will gladly respond to all your comments soon. Yesterday after a heavier cleaning (not fully cleaned yet) I wanted to prove or remove My doubts about a possible very thin lamination at the barrel lug It is now showing the slice pattern well. First I used sanding to clean and remove black spots and rust with WD 40 and commercial fiber pads manually. I did resort to a Dremel tool with identical pads on the fluted muzzle with the best effect so far for displaying the design. I'm certain now it is not an etched on effect. I etched the barrels front half after more aggressive scrubbing with pads. Scoping the bore shows the chamber restrictor showing perhaps an area where weld may be incomplete. My scanner and Pc are not on good terms. Dr. Figiel mentions different slice depths for the spiral and orange slice portions he suggests they were cut nearly thru in two directions and layed out flat side by side for forging.,

archer · 10th February 2018, 03:43 AM

Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust.
Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique
he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up
a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself.

Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine
bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing.
It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project.

Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern.
Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 06:33 AM

You are doing a very nice job on it Steve.

Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist.
Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made!

Richard.

archer · 10th February 2018, 07:09 AM

Hi Richard,
I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 02:15 PM

Thanks for that, Steve.

I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when!

The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load.

The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire.
Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy.
I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged;
If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along.

Best regards,
Richard.

archer · 10th February 2018, 04:28 PM

Hi Richard

I think your chamber without restriction could be a boon or a boom.generally the feeling now is pack everything tight air spaces raise pressures. Someone here recently stated that with the old powders the extra air for burning gave these bores their advantage. I wonder if something like kapok might allow for needed reduction and allow modern Peridox to be used would the filler burn off or just melt into goo. There is a U Tube where they explained that dried dung and or dirt was dumped into chamber before the ball was seated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTfEDaWMj4o

I wonder how the Japanese and Portuguese loaded theirs. I'd love to shoot one. Steve

Roland_M · 14th February 2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.

Roland

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2018, 04:02 PM

Roland,

I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures.
I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused.
A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern.
An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel.
(Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.)

This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern.

This was just to clarify.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

archer · 14th February 2018, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.

Roland

Hello Roland,
I sent you an Email thru Forum and would enjoy any information you might be able to provide. I'm currently using more prolonged Etching to get the barrel etched evenly where time and mild repeated cleanings have made it more shallow. The barrel is showing a sort of sideways W pattern and some of the joints where sections were forged together. Yes we all will benefit from more knowledge. A photo from Figiel Zig Zag Pattern. Thank you, Steve

10th February 2018, 02:50 AM	#2
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Better Info Thank you all for your input I will gladly respond to all your comments soon. Yesterday after a heavier cleaning (not fully cleaned yet) I wanted to prove or remove My doubts about a possible very thin lamination at the barrel lug It is now showing the slice pattern well. First I used sanding to clean and remove black spots and rust with WD 40 and commercial fiber pads manually. I did resort to a Dremel tool with identical pads on the fluted muzzle with the best effect so far for displaying the design. I'm certain now it is not an etched on effect. I etched the barrels front half after more aggressive scrubbing with pads. Scoping the bore shows the chamber restrictor showing perhaps an area where weld may be incomplete. My scanner and Pc are not on good terms. Dr. Figiel mentions different slice depths for the spiral and orange slice portions he suggests they were cut nearly thru in two directions and layed out flat side by side for forging., Attached Images

10th February 2018, 03:43 AM	#3
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	responses Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust. Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself. Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing. It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project. Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern. Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve Last edited by archer; 10th February 2018 at 06:51 AM.

10th February 2018, 07:09 AM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Etchant Hi Richard, I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out. Attached Images Last edited by archer; 10th February 2018 at 04:09 PM.

10th February 2018, 04:28 PM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Chambers Hi Richard I think your chamber without restriction could be a boon or a boom.generally the feeling now is pack everything tight air spaces raise pressures. Someone here recently stated that with the old powders the extra air for burning gave these bores their advantage. I wonder if something like kapok might allow for needed reduction and allow modern Peridox to be used would the filler burn off or just melt into goo. There is a U Tube where they explained that dried dung and or dirt was dumped into chamber before the ball was seated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTfEDaWMj4o I wonder how the Japanese and Portuguese loaded theirs. I'd love to shoot one. Steve

10th February 2018, 06:33 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	You are doing a very nice job on it Steve. Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist. Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made! Richard.

10th February 2018, 02:15 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thanks for that, Steve. I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when! The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load. The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire. Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy. I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged; If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along. Best regards, Richard.

14th February 2018, 04:02 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Roland, I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures. I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused. A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern. An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel. (Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.) This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern. This was just to clarify. Kindest regards, Richard.