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-   -   Interesting Toradar Barrel (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23637)

archer 8th February 2018 08:09 PM

Interesting Toradar Barrel
 
9 Attachment(s)
Hoping to find more information on how this Toradár barrel was made. It probably came from Jaislemer a city fort ruled by a Rajput family.the barrel was all I obtained weighs 6 lbs. and is 39 inches long with a bore size of 75 hundreds of an inch, it easily accepts a full choke muzzle loader wad. The chamber and muzzle are made in an orange slice pattern and an exaggerated zig-zag pattern on the slightly oval barrel.
Dr Leo S.Figiel in his book" On Damascus steel", exhibits similar barrel designs . This one incorporates two designs in one barrel. At these junctions are steel bands once covered in some gold. I think the swaging was done in a cone within a cone and the rings were cover the weld.
Everything about this barrel while similar is different. It seems at one moment to be an applied layer then as the entire diagonal spiral wrapped solid construction barrel. Apparently inserted faggots of steel were forged together, Multi Fiori glass or hard candy fashion.

Note the slice pattern is diminished under the chamber and what is there is rather faint??? The zig-zag pattern is hard to follow it appears to overlap the raised ridge of the barrel.

It came with heavy oxidized patina with only a hint of maybe engraving at the breach. Never having seen one up close I'm not sure what a restored finish should look like love the design effect in the polished muzzle area.
Is six pounds excessive for a barrel? any and all comments and further advise will be appreciated Steve

Pukka Bundook 9th February 2018 02:12 AM

Good evening Steve,

That is a very interesting barrel!

I have seen similar design in Elgood's book on Islamic arms, (Toradar /Indian section)
With the book you have, you are definately one up on me! I never knew how they made that "orange" pattern. I believe in Robert's book there is one with just about every pattern of weld all on the one barrel.

It looks fantastic at the muzzle! How is the bore, and,...Does it have a constriction and chamber at the breech? (Most do.)

Weight -wise, I do not think it that unusual for a torador /toradar. (In India, they have various names for these, and here, we squabble about two of them, LOL!
I have two barrels of approximately the same weight, but one is 53 inches long.
These are round in section, but have one at maybe 46", and it has the ridge on the upper side, and is a sporting gun (I believe) from Jaipur or Amber.

Indian barrels are usually Much heavier than European or British, and that helps a lot with recoil, the toradar not having much to brace against the shoulder.
I woul dif possible like to see an overall view.

Thanks for showing it, and sorry I am no real help!

Richard.

archer 9th February 2018 03:19 AM

Re chamber within breech
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hi Richard ,
The barrel should cleanup nicely oddly the fluted area appears choked down a bit. Were the guns ever used as Fowlers? The breech has a restriction of a 1/4 inch then it opens up for about 4 inches. The Rear Sight is very finely slotted but , the ears almost look as the could be used for windage. i'll have see if I can find books you mentioned. The wave cheveron patterns shown
are much smaller and i'm not sure just how my barrel was zig-zagged well over the width of normal strip sizes?? Thanks Steve

Roland_M 9th February 2018 03:14 PM

Hello Steve,

such a nice barrel!

Here I have an old guide how to clean the barrel for you.

"An old trade process for polishing metal used white black-board chalk sticks
in combination with oil. First coat the barrels with a light film of gun oil or
Ballistol. Then rub the barrels with the chalk stick, focusing on the rusted areas, but to include the entire surface."


Roland

thomas hauschild 9th February 2018 06:08 PM

I‘m not realy sure if this is a damascus steel made out of layers. The “round“ structure which looks like a wheel or a half cut orange will be possible to make as a round bar, not impossible. But making opposite cuts and fold it out will not result such a clear, undeformed pattern with one round near the other. Cutting such a bar into slices and weld let me say 30 pieces side by side on a flat different steel is possible but the weld will not so good that you ca make a long enough bar to bend it round to make a barrel. And make every hammerblow and keep the structure round within the steel and make every welding and forming and keep the round pattern. I do not think so

The strukture with the angles shows exakt „layers“ meeting each other perfectly „around the sharp angle“ . If you make a twisted bar, the pattern will be different ( turkish twist) if you will make a bar with a 45° angle, that will be possible but it will be impossible to make a second bar and weld it so perfectly together that you will meet the opposite layer everytime perfectly, like it looks on the pictures. You can push a cold blade through a „high tower“ of hot damascus steel and get that angle afterwards but there will be a „feather-like“ structure after this. ( google for feather damascus ) It will be possible to weld 2 pieces of damascus steel together under an angle to make a chevron. There are some composite blades with chevrons in some kris. But that pieces are very small and does not have the length that you will need to make a barrel like this with perfectly matching layers. To make a long enough bar to wrap it around a core likes this, will need several thousands layers that will need to match the oposite bar

So from the pictures I‘m afraid that this is a just etched structure and there will be a risk to polish and clean them away.

Edit: reading the following comments it is very interesting that it is not just etched. Nice to be wrong. Maximum respect to the maker of the past time. I think the only way to make it is to cut the pieces of the first bar into pieces an weld that pieces on a flat steel like little mosaic stones on a flat ground

Just my opinion

Best Thomas

stenoyab 9th February 2018 08:44 PM

On the barrel of a match lock I posted a while back you can see how they etched patterns, when I removed it from the stock you can see the contrast of the old aged etch and the near mint etch (once I wiped it down).

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21076

kai 10th February 2018 01:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenoyab
On the barrel of a match lock I posted a while back you can see how they etched patterns, when I removed it from the stock you can see the contrast of the old aged etch and the near mint etch (once I wiped it down).

Yes, your's does look etched, indeed.

kai 10th February 2018 01:25 AM

Hello Thomas,

Quote:
from the pictures I‘m afraid that this is a just etched structure and there will be a risk to polish and clean them away.

I believe I do see some cold shuts on the pics and believe this really is a forged pattern!

I also don't think that Leo Figiel would have mistaken a fake/etched pattern for the real thing... ;)


Quote:
The “round“ structure which looks like a wheel or a half cut orange will be possible to make as a round bar, not impossible. But making opposite cuts and fold it out will not result such a clear, undeformed pattern with one round near the other. Cutting such a bar into slices and weld let me say 30 pieces side by side on a flat different steel is possible but the weld will not so good that you ca make a long enough bar to bend it round to make a barrel.

The approach won't work as pictured - I think there is a step missing/implicated: First, the rod will need an additional layer of iron with the final cross-section being square (without distorting the circular core). Then you need to completely cut through the circular core but keep a thin outer layer for flattening out the zig-zag folds into a band. In the final configuration on the barrel, there also seems to be a slightly thicker interspersing "line" for fusing the spirally arranged pattern-welded band.

Regards,
Kai

archer 10th February 2018 02:50 AM

Better Info
 
6 Attachment(s)
Thank you all for your input I will gladly respond to all your comments soon. Yesterday after a heavier cleaning (not fully cleaned yet) I wanted to prove or remove My doubts about a possible very thin lamination at the barrel lug It is now showing the slice pattern well. First I used sanding to clean and remove black spots and rust with WD 40 and commercial fiber pads manually. I did resort to a Dremel tool with identical pads on the fluted muzzle with the best effect so far for displaying the design. I'm certain now it is not an etched on effect. I etched the barrels front half after more aggressive scrubbing with pads. Scoping the bore shows the chamber restrictor showing perhaps an area where weld may be incomplete. My scanner and Pc are not on good terms. Dr. Figiel mentions different slice depths for the spiral and orange slice portions he suggests they were cut nearly thru in two directions and layed out flat side by side for forging.,

archer 10th February 2018 03:43 AM

responses
 
Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust.
Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique
he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up
a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself.

Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine
bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing.
It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project.

Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern.
Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve

Pukka Bundook 10th February 2018 06:33 AM

You are doing a very nice job on it Steve.

Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist.
Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made!

Richard.

archer 10th February 2018 07:09 AM

Etchant
 
5 Attachment(s)
Hi Richard,
I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

Pukka Bundook 10th February 2018 02:15 PM

Thanks for that, Steve.

I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when!

The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load.

The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire.
Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy.
I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged;
If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along.

Best regards,
Richard.

archer 10th February 2018 04:28 PM

Chambers
 
Hi Richard

I think your chamber without restriction could be a boon or a boom.generally the feeling now is pack everything tight air spaces raise pressures. Someone here recently stated that with the old powders the extra air for burning gave these bores their advantage. I wonder if something like kapok might allow for needed reduction and allow modern Peridox to be used would the filler burn off or just melt into goo. There is a U Tube where they explained that dried dung and or dirt was dumped into chamber before the ball was seated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTfEDaWMj4o

I wonder how the Japanese and Portuguese loaded theirs. I'd love to shoot one. Steve

Pukka Bundook 10th February 2018 08:46 PM

Steve, When I replied above, your pictures after etching did not show for some reason. That is Beautiful work!!!

Now I had not though about dung or dirt as a filler! At least with my "chamberless " one I don't have to worry about germ warfare. :-)

I do recall reading, I think in Elgood, that these took longer to load because of the chambers, but it does not go on to say why....or How they were loaded. I will look at your link, and thank you for that!

R

Edited to add S**t works! LOL!

Steve,

Yesterday I tried out a terrible old toraor that I'd been working on. Had to fine-bore the barrel as it was very rough.
It is Very lightly stocked and had parts missing.
Anyway, after the usual safety test, I loaded it as they did in the video, with dried cow manure as wadding, and it went off like greased lightning! Accuracy -wise wasn't brilliant, as it seems to be shooting "off" a bit. May need the barrel straightening a bit
This one has a constricted chamber, so the wadding was required, but it Does work......also the barrel remained dry and less greasy than with normal wadding...

archer 12th February 2018 02:42 AM

wadding
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hey Richard so S**T Happens to be the answer. Wow who knew!! Editing was why you hadn't seen photos on previous post, an afterthought to insure you or others will know a rinse that works. Too funny, sometimes we just have to do it the old way. I've been catching up on your old posts your doing great restoring these guns. The one I bought in England is waiting to see if i can add to the 3 gun limit i'll be paying for, anyway I thought the stock was broken may not be after seeing your posts. You have definitely made my day. Jump in if you see something at auction. Steve

Pukka Bundook 12th February 2018 03:06 AM

Steve,

Somewhere in your first sentence above, there is a Tee shirt slogan!

Not sure on the why's and wherefores of the 3 gun limit, but it may be into the US things work differently.
If you need a name of a lassie who handles such transactions, drop me a line.

I had mine shipped into the US as well, then up here by road, as Canada will only allow "Firearms" (and that is Any form of gun, no matter how old,) to come into the country via Air Canada, and there is a very stiff lock-up price for this service.

By surface mail, we have greater lee-way as long as not in a rush!

Looking at your stock it appears to have broken just in front of the normal join. (Not All are so joined, but a majority I'd say) It looks a very fine and strong barrel, and the break looks clean, even if sadly fresh. It looks like it should repair without much bother I'd say.

We do see many more of these interestig arms in the UK than over here. again, rather sadly!

I missed a rather unusual one a while back. Will put up a photo if I still have it.

I am a bit surprised Rick has not joined in. I will see if I can dig him up!

All best,

Richard.


Edited to say, that on looking at the one above, It is nearly positive to have come from Jaipur /Amber. It has all the hallmarks, and is a lovely piece!

archer 12th February 2018 04:26 AM

info
 
Richard,
The Shipping company will ship up to three guns for the same price as the one. I guess British law requires a gun dealer to ship by air. I think the US only needs it shipped thru an import center This barrel and others are coming DHL out of India just fine. oh I sent an EMail thru forum Steve

Pukka Bundook 12th February 2018 06:13 AM

Steve,

I have sent you some shipping info. Hope it helps. :-)

All the best,

R.

Roland_M 14th February 2018 03:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by archer
I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.



This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.


Roland

Pukka Bundook 14th February 2018 04:02 PM

Roland,

I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures.
I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused.
A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern.
An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel.
(Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.)

This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern.

This was just to clarify.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Roland_M 14th February 2018 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
Roland,

I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures.
I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused.
A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern.
An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel.
(Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.)

This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern.

This was just to clarify.

Kindest regards,
Richard.



Hello Richard,

thank you very much for your explanation. In Germany we know no difference between etching and staining. I learned this difference from Mr. Alan Maisey. Yes I understand the difference since a few months.
I wrote etching because in the book "Oriental arms and armour" Lord Eggerton says Indian barrels are etched until there is a relief in the surface and he describes pretty detailed how they did that. The book: On Damascus Steel" from Dr. Figiel shows exactly the same type of pattern welded barrel on page 138 and 139 and this barrel is relief etched (at least I`m sure about that). But the patternd welded swords seem to be stained not etched. I guess a relief etching is more durable on barrels, which become hot from shooting and often oiled.

Please correct me, if I write something wrong. This is the only and best way to learn more!


Best wishes and thank you again for your explanation,
Roland

archer 14th February 2018 07:01 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.


Roland

Hello Roland,
I sent you an Email thru Forum and would enjoy any information you might be able to provide. I'm currently using more prolonged Etching to get the barrel etched evenly where time and mild repeated cleanings have made it more shallow. The barrel is showing a sort of sideways W pattern and some of the joints where sections were forged together. Yes we all will benefit from more knowledge. A photo from Figiel Zig Zag Pattern. Thank you, Steve

Pukka Bundook 15th February 2018 02:02 PM

Roland,

You know more about this than I do, and cannot think I could add anything to what you describe above.
I did not know if all Indian barrels were etched, as I have a couple that are very smooth and uniform, and show no pattern either.

I should try an etch on a hidden area.
It appears I need more books! :-)

Steve,

That barrel is becoming very vibrant!

Roland_M 15th February 2018 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
Roland,

You know more about this than I do, and cannot think I could add anything to what you describe above.
I did not know if all Indian barrels were etched, as I have a couple that are very smooth and uniform, and show no pattern either.

I should try an etch on a hidden area.
It appears I need more books! :-)

Steve,

That barrel is becoming very vibrant!



Hello Steve,

Her is the link to the "DamascusRestorationandRefinish.pdf" for you and add the link here in the thread. The results look very professional.

https://www.datafilehost.com/d/48547375

And another one about Barrel strength.

https://www.datafilehost.com/d/1b05bc93

If you try an etch on a hidden area, I would suggest a salt instead of acid, because it is less destructive. A mild solution of Iron(III) chloride (I dont like it but others got very good results with it) or Sodiumpersulfate (~10 grams on 100 millilitre distilled warm water (40-50°C), barrel should be warmed up with hot water from the water-tab). This is easy to remove without traces and brings out every tiny detail of the pattern. You can ask Sajen,in case you dont trust me.

Btw. it is hard to see from pictures but British barrels or European pattern welded barrels in generell seems to have no relief etching, only a staining.

It would be really interesting, to find out the true reason why Indian pattern welded barrels are deep etched? It could also simply be just a question of fashion.

More books are always good but I afraid, you will not learn more about restoration. What you need is a good validated guide. I hope "DamascusRestorationandRefinish" will help you, this guide has been done by pros.


Kind regards,
Roland

Ian 15th February 2018 04:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello Steve,

Her is the link to the "DamascusRestorationandRefinish.pdf" for you and add the link here in the thread. The results look very professional.

https://www.file-upload.net/downloa...finish.pdf.html

...

More books are always good but I afraid, you will not learn more about restoration. What you need is a good validated guide. I hope "DamascusRestorationandRefinish" will help you, this guide has been done by pros.


Kind regards,
Roland
Roland,

Thanks for showing the link to this informative piece. I think it will find wider application than just gun barrels.

Ian.

Roland_M 15th February 2018 04:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Roland,

Thanks for showing the link to this informative piece. I think it will find wider application than just gun barrels.

Ian.



Sorry Ian, the first file hoster is crap. I try another one, now it works.
again:

restoration guide:
https://www.datafilehost.com/d/48547375

barrel strength:
https://www.datafilehost.com/d/1b05bc93


Roland

Ian 15th February 2018 04:27 PM

Hi Roland,

The first link worked for me on the second try. The second link works well too.

Ian

Richard Furrer 16th February 2018 03:09 AM

Pattern weld pattern
 
Archer,
Just saw the thread...quite a complex bit of welding there. The difference I see in this to other "orange section" welding (the round converging part) is that the center has a coil or jelly roll.
The zigzag are good, not as "ziggy" as the one in Dr. Figiel's book, but that does not bother me.

I would not mind some macro photos of the orange sections..a few of them to compare how the pattern evolves.

Makes me want to make one.
Ric

archer 16th February 2018 01:04 PM

macro orange slices
 
8 Attachment(s)
Hi Ric, Loved your documentary on armor plate. If more photos are need I'll send them directly to forge works. The top half of the orange slices had been correctly etched in the day, just abit appeared on the sides. I thought this was a metal decoupage til I saw two barrels in Dr Figiels book.
His theory about how they were made and that thicknesses would vary
breech to muzzle. They suggested this may well be a stronger breech due to the extreme number of heats. I can't wrap my head around how this I guess mostly single W pattern was made. unless they used the same technique. Things i've noticed there is an area about 1/4 in at breech end ,before pattern begins.1st strip is about 1/4in at barrel lug increases to 1/2 in or so. one slice ahead of gold cover is much bigger. The slices on the muzzle are flat and look like tattoos.

I lightened the barrel and gave it a light etch again. W's are harder to see
and in I guess some segments don't match up well and are muddy. How in the heck was the barrels pattern done? Thank you, Steve


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