Which deity does this Bali handle represent?

David · 8th February 2018, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.
Regards

Yes Jean, could also be obsidian. While i have not seen similar stones used on older seluts i wonder why you suggest they are not "suitable".

Battara · 9th February 2018, 12:35 AM

If I remember right, it is the color of the stones that has talismanic and/or spiritual significance in Balinese pieces. Thus you see a lot of blue sapphires, red rubies, or black stones, or at least glass replacements.

A. G. Maisey · 9th February 2018, 02:40 AM

Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala, related to SOUTH:-

South -- Kelod -- To the Sea -- Brahma -- Saraswati -- Red -- Impurity, strife, coarseness, lack of self control -- Liver -- Pigs & rubbish

In the case of BLACK, the relationship in the Mandala is to the NORTH and the deity concerned is WISNU. In this case of WISNU, the colour can also be GREEN.

The most popular colour combination in traditionally mounted hilts is WHITE - BLACK - RED, which is representative of the Balinese Trinity:- Iswara (or Siwa*) - Wisnu - Brahma.
* in very simplistic terms "Iswara" can be understood as being the same as Siwa. This is an incorrect but easy to relate to understanding. Iswara can mean different things in different contexts and in different strands of Hindu belief. A slightly more complex way of thinking of Iswara is that Iswara is the universal oneness that connects all. In the Mandala Siwa embraces mixed colours, but because the mixing of colours creates WHITE, Siwa can also be understood in terms of WHITE.

If the colour used in something is intended to relate to only one deity, it could be expected that the colour will tie to the one deity in terms of Mandala related symbolism, but if the colour relationship is to more than one deity, or more than one Mandala related concept then the colours will indicate what that relationship is likely to be.

So, yes, in Balinese belief colour is symbolic, but it requires a great deal of understanding to be able to interpret the many possible relationships. It is really a job for a specialist, it is probably sufficient for us if we have a broad understanding of the relationships and that they can and often do, exist.

In respect of probable age of this hilt, I am inclined to place the selut in the span of 1960 - 1980. I believe the hilt probably dates from the same period. This is opinion only, based upon what I know of style related to period in Balinese craft-works.

Battara · 11th February 2018, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala

Thank you so much Alan for elaborating on this: I have always wondered and now your explanation fills in a lot of holes for us (and especially me

).

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2018, 07:22 AM

My explanation of Balinese symbolism is very superficial, and about all I've done is to confirm that, yeah, symbolism does exist. Something that we already know. the info that I put up comes from a lady named Murni, who was the informant for Jonathon Copeland's "Secrets of Bali".

I would guess that if you google "Bali + mandala + Murni" you will get a whole lot more.

David · 11th February 2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

the info that I put up comes from a lady named Murni, who was the informant for Jonathon Copeland's "Secrets of Bali".

Alan, do you recommend this book? I have not read it yet.

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2018, 08:40 PM

Most wholeheartedly David.

It will open your eyes to what real , traditional attitudes in Bali actually are.

It is a low priced book, and the production is less than wonderful, but the content is as good as you will get in this field. Jonathan Copeland is a British lawyer, who has had a long association with Bali, and in my understanding now lives there. I have met with both Ni Wayan Murni, and Jonathan Copeland and both these people are genuine, feet-on-the-ground people.

What you will read in "Secrets" is not the rose coloured drivel of some newly converted Bali enthusiast, it is the real thing.

"Secrets of Bali --- Fresh Light on the Morning of the World", Jonathan Copeland, Ni Wayan Murni, Orchid Press, PO Box 1046, Silom Post Office, Bangkok 10504, Thailand, ISBN: 978-974-524-118-3

It is not difficult to find, throw the ISBN into BOOKFINDER and you will get a lot of choices.

9th February 2018, 12:35 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	If I remember right, it is the color of the stones that has talismanic and/or spiritual significance in Balinese pieces. Thus you see a lot of blue sapphires, red rubies, or black stones, or at least glass replacements.

9th February 2018, 02:40 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala, related to SOUTH:- South -- Kelod -- To the Sea -- Brahma -- Saraswati -- Red -- Impurity, strife, coarseness, lack of self control -- Liver -- Pigs & rubbish In the case of BLACK, the relationship in the Mandala is to the NORTH and the deity concerned is WISNU. In this case of WISNU, the colour can also be GREEN. The most popular colour combination in traditionally mounted hilts is WHITE - BLACK - RED, which is representative of the Balinese Trinity:- Iswara (or Siwa) - Wisnu - Brahma. in very simplistic terms "Iswara" can be understood as being the same as Siwa. This is an incorrect but easy to relate to understanding. Iswara can mean different things in different contexts and in different strands of Hindu belief. A slightly more complex way of thinking of Iswara is that Iswara is the universal oneness that connects all. In the Mandala Siwa embraces mixed colours, but because the mixing of colours creates WHITE, Siwa can also be understood in terms of WHITE. If the colour used in something is intended to relate to only one deity, it could be expected that the colour will tie to the one deity in terms of Mandala related symbolism, but if the colour relationship is to more than one deity, or more than one Mandala related concept then the colours will indicate what that relationship is likely to be. So, yes, in Balinese belief colour is symbolic, but it requires a great deal of understanding to be able to interpret the many possible relationships. It is really a job for a specialist, it is probably sufficient for us if we have a broad understanding of the relationships and that they can and often do, exist. In respect of probable age of this hilt, I am inclined to place the selut in the span of 1960 - 1980. I believe the hilt probably dates from the same period. This is opinion only, based upon what I know of style related to period in Balinese craft-works.

11th February 2018, 07:22 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	My explanation of Balinese symbolism is very superficial, and about all I've done is to confirm that, yeah, symbolism does exist. Something that we already know. the info that I put up comes from a lady named Murni, who was the informant for Jonathon Copeland's "Secrets of Bali". I would guess that if you google "Bali + mandala + Murni" you will get a whole lot more.

11th February 2018, 08:40 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Most wholeheartedly David. It will open your eyes to what real , traditional attitudes in Bali actually are. It is a low priced book, and the production is less than wonderful, but the content is as good as you will get in this field. Jonathan Copeland is a British lawyer, who has had a long association with Bali, and in my understanding now lives there. I have met with both Ni Wayan Murni, and Jonathan Copeland and both these people are genuine, feet-on-the-ground people. What you will read in "Secrets" is not the rose coloured drivel of some newly converted Bali enthusiast, it is the real thing. "Secrets of Bali --- Fresh Light on the Morning of the World", Jonathan Copeland, Ni Wayan Murni, Orchid Press, PO Box 1046, Silom Post Office, Bangkok 10504, Thailand, ISBN: 978-974-524-118-3 It is not difficult to find, throw the ISBN into BOOKFINDER and you will get a lot of choices.