Which deity does this Bali handle represent?

Paul de Souza · 8th February 2018, 10:01 AM

I feel there is age in it but some people have said it is stained for age effect. There is a shine and wear to that suggest lots of handling and age. It may be stained but not a recent thing given the wear on it. I hope the following will help.

Jean · 8th February 2018, 12:56 PM

Thank you Paul. There are still not many clues about the identification of the figure but it has a Garuda Mungkur on the back of the head, it is made from elephant ivory (Retzius lines visible on some pics) and the patina looks natural as the exposed tips (toes, etc) are whiter and worn. A nice hilt anyway, the selut may be less old than the hilt itself.
Regards

Paul B. · 8th February 2018, 03:22 PM

Any idea about the semi-precious cabochon stones involved in the selut?

David · 8th February 2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Any idea about the semi-precious cabochon stones involved in the selut?

Well Paul, when you ask about age that was a red flag for me. Are they black in color. They look like they might be diopside which is not a stone i can see i have seen used on Bali hilts that are truly old. As Jean suggested the selut could be a newer addition, but it does make me suspicious of the age of the entire piece ash the color of the ivory does look dyed to me. Also the other diamond-like stones seem an unusual cut for older Balinese work.

Jean · 8th February 2018, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Any idea about the semi-precious cabochon stones involved in the selut?

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.
Regards

David · 8th February 2018, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.
Regards

Yes Jean, could also be obsidian. While i have not seen similar stones used on older seluts i wonder why you suggest they are not "suitable".

Battara · 9th February 2018, 12:35 AM

If I remember right, it is the color of the stones that has talismanic and/or spiritual significance in Balinese pieces. Thus you see a lot of blue sapphires, red rubies, or black stones, or at least glass replacements.

A. G. Maisey · 9th February 2018, 02:40 AM

Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala, related to SOUTH:-

South -- Kelod -- To the Sea -- Brahma -- Saraswati -- Red -- Impurity, strife, coarseness, lack of self control -- Liver -- Pigs & rubbish

In the case of BLACK, the relationship in the Mandala is to the NORTH and the deity concerned is WISNU. In this case of WISNU, the colour can also be GREEN.

The most popular colour combination in traditionally mounted hilts is WHITE - BLACK - RED, which is representative of the Balinese Trinity:- Iswara (or Siwa*) - Wisnu - Brahma.
* in very simplistic terms "Iswara" can be understood as being the same as Siwa. This is an incorrect but easy to relate to understanding. Iswara can mean different things in different contexts and in different strands of Hindu belief. A slightly more complex way of thinking of Iswara is that Iswara is the universal oneness that connects all. In the Mandala Siwa embraces mixed colours, but because the mixing of colours creates WHITE, Siwa can also be understood in terms of WHITE.

If the colour used in something is intended to relate to only one deity, it could be expected that the colour will tie to the one deity in terms of Mandala related symbolism, but if the colour relationship is to more than one deity, or more than one Mandala related concept then the colours will indicate what that relationship is likely to be.

So, yes, in Balinese belief colour is symbolic, but it requires a great deal of understanding to be able to interpret the many possible relationships. It is really a job for a specialist, it is probably sufficient for us if we have a broad understanding of the relationships and that they can and often do, exist.

In respect of probable age of this hilt, I am inclined to place the selut in the span of 1960 - 1980. I believe the hilt probably dates from the same period. This is opinion only, based upon what I know of style related to period in Balinese craft-works.

kai · 10th February 2018, 01:33 AM

Hello Jean,

Quote:

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.

Don't these look like low-quality black sapphires? (Basically with irregular layers of needles inside rather than clear or star sapphires?)

Regards,
Kai

Paul B. · 10th February 2018, 12:44 PM

Obsidian seems not the case...shiny and pitchblack but not semi-translucent like the depicted uwer stones.
This is another probably similar cabochon stone and low quality sapphire is a good guess Kai. Optional: smokey quartz but tends to be more brownish.

A. G. Maisey · 10th February 2018, 07:46 PM

These stones, both black and red, were very popular in Balinese silver jewellery from the early 1970's through to the mid-1980's. That is the time span I can vouch for, but they might have been used before the 1970's, have not seen the black stones like these in verifiable pre-WWII work. I think these stones are both still used, but not nearly as often as they used to be. During the 1970' -1980's the black stones were very prevalent. They used to call them black sapphires in Bali, something I've always found difficult to accept. Sapphire is corundum, if it is brilliant cut crystal, its a sapphire, if it is a dull black cab it is stuff that missed out on getting ground up and made into W&D paper. If it is a cab with a star, well, that's different. They were cheap stones.

8th February 2018, 10:01 AM	#1
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	I feel there is age in it but some people have said it is stained for age effect. There is a shine and wear to that suggest lots of handling and age. It may be stained but not a recent thing given the wear on it. I hope the following will help. Attached Images

10th February 2018, 12:44 PM	#10
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Obsidian seems not the case...shiny and pitchblack but not semi-translucent like the depicted uwer stones. This is another probably similar cabochon stone and low quality sapphire is a good guess Kai. Optional: smokey quartz but tends to be more brownish. Attached Images

8th February 2018, 12:56 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Paul. There are still not many clues about the identification of the figure but it has a Garuda Mungkur on the back of the head, it is made from elephant ivory (Retzius lines visible on some pics) and the patina looks natural as the exposed tips (toes, etc) are whiter and worn. A nice hilt anyway, the selut may be less old than the hilt itself. Regards

8th February 2018, 03:22 PM	#3
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Any idea about the semi-precious cabochon stones involved in the selut?

9th February 2018, 12:35 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	If I remember right, it is the color of the stones that has talismanic and/or spiritual significance in Balinese pieces. Thus you see a lot of blue sapphires, red rubies, or black stones, or at least glass replacements.

9th February 2018, 02:40 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala, related to SOUTH:- South -- Kelod -- To the Sea -- Brahma -- Saraswati -- Red -- Impurity, strife, coarseness, lack of self control -- Liver -- Pigs & rubbish In the case of BLACK, the relationship in the Mandala is to the NORTH and the deity concerned is WISNU. In this case of WISNU, the colour can also be GREEN. The most popular colour combination in traditionally mounted hilts is WHITE - BLACK - RED, which is representative of the Balinese Trinity:- Iswara (or Siwa) - Wisnu - Brahma. in very simplistic terms "Iswara" can be understood as being the same as Siwa. This is an incorrect but easy to relate to understanding. Iswara can mean different things in different contexts and in different strands of Hindu belief. A slightly more complex way of thinking of Iswara is that Iswara is the universal oneness that connects all. In the Mandala Siwa embraces mixed colours, but because the mixing of colours creates WHITE, Siwa can also be understood in terms of WHITE. If the colour used in something is intended to relate to only one deity, it could be expected that the colour will tie to the one deity in terms of Mandala related symbolism, but if the colour relationship is to more than one deity, or more than one Mandala related concept then the colours will indicate what that relationship is likely to be. So, yes, in Balinese belief colour is symbolic, but it requires a great deal of understanding to be able to interpret the many possible relationships. It is really a job for a specialist, it is probably sufficient for us if we have a broad understanding of the relationships and that they can and often do, exist. In respect of probable age of this hilt, I am inclined to place the selut in the span of 1960 - 1980. I believe the hilt probably dates from the same period. This is opinion only, based upon what I know of style related to period in Balinese craft-works.

10th February 2018, 07:46 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	These stones, both black and red, were very popular in Balinese silver jewellery from the early 1970's through to the mid-1980's. That is the time span I can vouch for, but they might have been used before the 1970's, have not seen the black stones like these in verifiable pre-WWII work. I think these stones are both still used, but not nearly as often as they used to be. During the 1970' -1980's the black stones were very prevalent. They used to call them black sapphires in Bali, something I've always found difficult to accept. Sapphire is corundum, if it is brilliant cut crystal, its a sapphire, if it is a dull black cab it is stuff that missed out on getting ground up and made into W&D paper. If it is a cab with a star, well, that's different. They were cheap stones.