Early Hungarian Sabre

[ariel]

The blade is highly likely Hungarian, but the entire sword is not , IMHO.
It strikes me as coming from one of the Arab areas of the Ottoman Empire, and I would bet on Iraq.
Hungarian blades and their local imitations were hugely popular in that part of the world.

[fernando]

VINCER AUT MO HUNGARIA; roughly translated from Latin as 'Victory for My Hungary'.

[Victrix]

Looks like an Arab Saif with a Hungarian ”trophy” blade to me. These links may be of interest:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ungarian-blade

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18147/lot/7/

It’s not impossible that the sword could have been used in the Balkans.

Not sure what the lion passant symbol is doing there as typically the Habsburg eagle was used on these blades. A lion is a heraldic symbol of the Kingdom of Bohemia, but was also the symbol of Sultan Baybars founder of the Mamluk state. I can’t see any details in the pictures of the blade.

[ariel]

Look here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...sylvanian+knot

[Victrix]

Very similar swords have been discussed here on the forum previously. Please see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hungaria where I can now see the lion motif.
and: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12450

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the information and in particular the links to previous posts. I will print these out for Alex so he can read them and make his own conclusion with regard to this sword. Thanks again

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

VINCER AUT MO HUNGARIA; roughly translated from Latin as 'Victory for My Hungary'.

Say, wouldn't your English version be VICTORIA HUNGARIAE MEAE?

A Polish saber in my collection is inscribed VINCERE AUT MORI and I've seen others with the same inscription including the country name ...POLONIA. Conquer or die for Poland, in such case.

[Victrix]

Latin was very popular in Hungary and Poland as these are Roman Catholic countries where it’s often still used in church service. In addition, Hungary was part of the Roman Empire when it was first part of the Province of Illyricum and later Pannonia. So you can find remains from this time in Hungary which has an absolutely fascinating history. It’s believed that Marcus Aurelius wrote at least part of his book Meditations in Aquincum (near Budapest) when fighting barbarians in the area.

Latin in these countries also had a renewed following in the classicist revival in the 19thC. Vincere aut mori (to win or die) was another motto common on Hungarian but also Polish sabre blades. Sabres had an almost cult like following in Poland where many of them are also engraved with different patriotic texts. Yes Polonia is Latin for Poland.

[NeilUK]

I agree with Victrix and would suggest that the motto is abbreviated for:
VINCERE AUT MORI PRO HUNGARIA - Conquer or Die for Hungary.
Neil

[fernando]

Originally Posted by NeilUK

I agree with Victrix and would suggest that the motto is abbreviated for:
VINCERE AUT MORI PRO HUNGARIA - Conquer or Die for Hungary.
Neil

Just as said, Neil. It took me some time to put up my post !

[mariusgmioc]

To me, this looks clearly like a Solingen blade... possibly engraved in Hungary. Pretty much the same "Hungarian" blade (made in Solingen) like the one in the Arabian Shamshir in the Ethnographic section:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17415

As far as I know there were NO blade making centers in Hungary and ALL the "Hungarian" blades were made in Solingen or other places in Germany and Austria. As far as I know... but that doesn't stretch too far.

Does anybody know of any proof there were blade making centers in Hungary?

Does anybody know of a Hungarian swordsmith?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Latin was very popular in Hungary and Poland as these are Roman Catholic countries where it’s often still used in church service.

Latin in these countries also had a renewed following in the classicist revival in the 19thC.

The popular use of religious/patriotic slogans in Latin on sword blades predates the 19th cent. revival. You see this going all the way back into the 17th cent.

As has been pointed out in previous posts, the blade in question was not necessarily made in either Poland or Hungary. And it's been mentioned that manufacture of sword blades for the mass market tended to be centered in a few areas, with export sales to other regions and countries. Solingen was of course a major location, and it was in a region that was heavily affected by the struggles and after-effects of the Protestant Reformation. As you may recall, Martin Luther and contemporaries emphasized contemporary, local idiom (German) in preference to Latin for religious tracts and the conduct of church services.

Terje Norheim, in the article "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen" ( Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger XVI ) discusses the badly written Latin inscriptions on a saber blade thought to be of Dutch or German manufacture, 17th cent.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

The popular use of religious/patriotic slogans in Latin on sword blades predates the 19th cent. revival. You see this going all the way back into the 17th cent.

As has been pointed out in previous posts, the blade in question was not necessarily made in either Poland or Hungary. And it's been mentioned that manufacture of sword blades for the mass market tended to be centered in a few areas, with export sales to other regions and countries. Solingen was of course a major location, and it was in a region that was heavily affected by the struggles and after-effects of the Protestant Reformation. As you may recall, Martin Luther and contemporaries emphasized contemporary, local idiom (German) in preference to Latin for religious tracts and the conduct of church services.

Terje Norheim, in the article "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen" ( Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger XVI ) discusses the badly written Latin inscriptions on a saber blade thought to be of Dutch or German manufacture, 17th cent.

Not sure that I understand your point/points?

[Richard G]

I think the lion is actually meant to be 'couchant' or possibly 'dormant' (lying or sleeping). Either way it is a heraldic device that represents peaceful intent, but ferocity and power if that intent is thwarted. Sometimes it is said to represent almost the opposite i.e. the ability of the device holder to calm such power and ferocity by some form of saintliness. I would guess in this case it is the former. It does not need to represent any particular institution or family, altho' of course, it could do.
Best wishes
Richard

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

Say, wouldn't your English version be VICTORIA HUNGARIAE MEAE?

A Polish saber in my collection is inscribed VINCERE AUT MORI and I've seen others with the same inscription including the country name ...POLONIA. Conquer or die for Poland, in such case.

Well, i was selling this "at cost price"; only caring to figure out the inscription contents, including misspellings and mistranslations.
The wording in the blade, as quoted, was brought from a source in that the interpreter, showing a 19th c. Arabian shamshir mounted with a Hungarian blade from the 1700s, gave it such translation, mentioning that it was a rough one ... maybe then too rough though.
In any case the construction of the phrase in both blades appears to have been both condensed and expanded, as arranged by the smith to give it a nationalist touch, as an approach to "Win or die for Hungary".

Actually the motto VINCERE AUT MORI, more preciously expressed as AUT VINCERE AUT MORI, would be a pledge familiar to VICTORIA AUT MORS (Victory or death) a motto seen in Heraldry.
I wounder whether these Latin mottos were a product of 'contemporary' fashion that not originated in early days, like by Romans.

And by the way, in my lingo we write Polonia and Hungria.


.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Actually the motto VINCERE AUT MORI, more preciously expressed as AUT VINCERE AUT MORI,




.

Thanks, Fernando, for clarifying with the complete phrase.