Another Afghan Jezail?

Victrix · 25th January 2018, 05:59 PM

Hi Stu,

Nice one! I prefer flintlocks before percussion myself. In terms of collectible items at least

.

What confuses me somewhat is that I feel my Jezail looks quite European apart from the butt. Yours look quite oriental just about everywhere. It could be that with the flintlocks your Jezails might be older and have more native appearance because foreign influences were yet to make inroads. Or as I suggested before, a local gunsmith might have customized my Jezail for a British Army client on order? If he wanted to take one back home to England with him he might have asked them to leave the traditional decorations off?

kahnjar1 · 26th January 2018, 07:05 PM

Hi Victrix,
IMHO the only part of your Jezail which COULD be European is the barrel. The rest appears to be typically Afghan/Northern India. The area was called the Northwest Frontier by the Brits.
As has been stated above, these guns were often made up from parts obtained from, and stolen from, the particular Colonial Power which held sway in the region. Also local gunmakers were (and are still) very much able to reproduce copies of guns. There are many good copies of Martini Henry and much more modern rifles (AKs) around which have been made in the back streets of general area.
I am of the opinion that if a British Serviceman was to want to take a "souvenir" home, he would not go to the trouble of have a gun custom made, but would rather just "acquire" one from a local Tribesman.
The lock on yours also appears to be a copy rather than the genuine item. Although the strikings are good, the letters TOWER are slightly out of line, which would be unlikely on the real thing. Perhaps you could detach the lock and post some pics of the inside?
Your Jezail IMHO is a good representation of the type, and the fact that it is likely a "local" gun, no way detracts from it's interest (or likely value).
As an aside, the lock on my Jezail without the trigger guard was the subject of discussion here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23563
Hope the above helps.
Stu

Victrix · 26th January 2018, 11:42 PM

Many thanks for that Stu. Interesting link.

I was not suggesting my Jezail was made in Europe, I only think it looks more designed for European tastes. But this may be because it’s a local attempt to imitate a foreign (at the time viewed as prestige) imported rifle. Also with the percussion lock it’s probably not as old as your flintlocks so British inflence had probably grown stronger by then. Also, Rajesh suggests that his rifle is more decorated because it might have been intended for more civilian use. I like the rifle for what it is. It looks really great!

kahnjar1 · 27th January 2018, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Many thanks for that Stu. Interesting link.

I was not suggesting my Jezail was made in Europe, I only think it looks more designed for European tastes. But this may be because it’s a local attempt to imitate a foreign (at the time viewed as prestige) imported rifle. Also with the percussion lock it’s probably not as old as your flintlocks so British inflence had probably grown stronger by then. Also, Rajesh suggests that his rifle is more decorated because it might have been intended for more civilian use. I like the rifle for what it is. It looks really great!

I agree with your comments. You have nice original gun there.
Stu

Fernando K · 27th January 2018, 12:28 PM

Hello

Just to say that the lock is European. Here I upload a lock of a rifle, a copy of the Enfield 1853, produced by English or Belgian armourers, and sold to the contenders in the American War of Secession, in this case to the southern states. As you can see, it has the word TOWER, the date, 1863, but placed inversely and a crown, but without figures of the reigning monarch. It also does not have the "wide arrow", which would denote property of the crown

Victrix · 27th January 2018, 05:29 PM

Bingo! Spot on, Fernando K. It’s a copy of the Pattern Enfield 1853 which was the AK47 of the Victorian era and produced in many locations around the world. It was the second most used rifle in the US Civil War after Springfield. I attach a picture of an Enfield used in the US CW. They imported 900,000 Enfield rifles! You clearly recognize the lock and the stock design, although mine is obviously for the oriental market with that kind of butt and octagonal rifled barrel and no strap fasteners. No wonder I thought it looked European. Now I like it even more!

. Thanks Fernando K!

kahnjar1 · 27th January 2018, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Just to say that the lock is European. Here I upload a lock of a rifle, a copy of the Enfield 1853, produced by English or Belgian armourers, and sold to the contenders in the American War of Secession, in this case to the southern states. As you can see, it has the word TOWER, the date, 1863, but placed inversely and a crown, but without figures of the reigning monarch. It also does not have the "wide arrow", which would denote property of the crown

Thank you Fernando K for posting the pic of the "1863" lock. This supports my comment exactly, that the letters "TOWER" are out of line on the lock on the Victrix Jezail. Compare the 2 pics and you will see what I mean.
By the way the letters L A Co on the other lock likely stand for London Armoury Company.
Stu

Fernando K · 27th January 2018, 09:01 PM

hello, Kanhjar1

the fact that the punch with the word TOWER a little inclined (since it was put to hand) is not enough to deny the nationality of the lock. Note the elaboration of the punch with the crown, the sherif of the letters and the thickening of the numbers, where it corresponds, the profile of the plate and the perfection of the hammer.

Affectionately. Fernando K

27th January 2018, 12:28 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	Hello Just to say that the lock is European. Here I upload a lock of a rifle, a copy of the Enfield 1853, produced by English or Belgian armourers, and sold to the contenders in the American War of Secession, in this case to the southern states. As you can see, it has the word TOWER, the date, 1863, but placed inversely and a crown, but without figures of the reigning monarch. It also does not have the "wide arrow", which would denote property of the crown Attached Images

27th January 2018, 05:29 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Bingo! Spot on, Fernando K. It’s a copy of the Pattern Enfield 1853 which was the AK47 of the Victorian era and produced in many locations around the world. It was the second most used rifle in the US Civil War after Springfield. I attach a picture of an Enfield used in the US CW. They imported 900,000 Enfield rifles! You clearly recognize the lock and the stock design, although mine is obviously for the oriental market with that kind of butt and octagonal rifled barrel and no strap fasteners. No wonder I thought it looked European. Now I like it even more! . Thanks Fernando K! Attached Images

25th January 2018, 05:59 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hi Stu, Nice one! I prefer flintlocks before percussion myself. In terms of collectible items at least . What confuses me somewhat is that I feel my Jezail looks quite European apart from the butt. Yours look quite oriental just about everywhere. It could be that with the flintlocks your Jezails might be older and have more native appearance because foreign influences were yet to make inroads. Or as I suggested before, a local gunsmith might have customized my Jezail for a British Army client on order? If he wanted to take one back home to England with him he might have asked them to leave the traditional decorations off?

26th January 2018, 07:05 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,809	Hi Victrix, IMHO the only part of your Jezail which COULD be European is the barrel. The rest appears to be typically Afghan/Northern India. The area was called the Northwest Frontier by the Brits. As has been stated above, these guns were often made up from parts obtained from, and stolen from, the particular Colonial Power which held sway in the region. Also local gunmakers were (and are still) very much able to reproduce copies of guns. There are many good copies of Martini Henry and much more modern rifles (AKs) around which have been made in the back streets of general area. I am of the opinion that if a British Serviceman was to want to take a "souvenir" home, he would not go to the trouble of have a gun custom made, but would rather just "acquire" one from a local Tribesman. The lock on yours also appears to be a copy rather than the genuine item. Although the strikings are good, the letters TOWER are slightly out of line, which would be unlikely on the real thing. Perhaps you could detach the lock and post some pics of the inside? Your Jezail IMHO is a good representation of the type, and the fact that it is likely a "local" gun, no way detracts from it's interest (or likely value). As an aside, the lock on my Jezail without the trigger guard was the subject of discussion here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23563 Hope the above helps. Stu

26th January 2018, 11:42 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Many thanks for that Stu. Interesting link. I was not suggesting my Jezail was made in Europe, I only think it looks more designed for European tastes. But this may be because it’s a local attempt to imitate a foreign (at the time viewed as prestige) imported rifle. Also with the percussion lock it’s probably not as old as your flintlocks so British inflence had probably grown stronger by then. Also, Rajesh suggests that his rifle is more decorated because it might have been intended for more civilian use. I like the rifle for what it is. It looks really great!

27th January 2018, 09:01 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	hello, Kanhjar1 the fact that the punch with the word TOWER a little inclined (since it was put to hand) is not enough to deny the nationality of the lock. Note the elaboration of the punch with the crown, the sherif of the letters and the thickening of the numbers, where it corresponds, the profile of the plate and the perfection of the hammer. Affectionately. Fernando K